The General Hillier Years. The Merged Superthread

[GAP]

That's crap

 

[neilinkorea]

That's crap

Wow.  You really make a well thought out argument.  The notion that two people can have different opinions and neither be wrong, or crap as you so eloquently put it, seems to be lost on you.

 

[Teeps74]

Wow.  You really make a well thought out argument.  The notion that two people can have different opinions and neither be wrong, or crap as you so eloquently put it, seems to be lost on you.

"That's crap." Is the only necessary rejoinder for your arguement. From your own quote:

...He won't become a defence lobbyist or a politician.

Grow up, learn how to build an arguement, do not leave room for people to simply say "That's crap.". On the evidence of what you provide, you have no arguement. None. You argue that someone who is now a private citizen should be held to the same standard as someone in service to this nation? That is a crap arguement.

You are an agent provocateur, nothing more.

 

[OldSolduer]

Me thinks FFNA could be Army Goon or CogDiss.....

Why the derision for the best CDS we've had in 30 years?

 

[neilinkorea]

"That's crap." Is the only necessary rejoinder for your arguement. From your own quote:

Grow up, learn how to build an arguement, do not leave room for people to simply say "That's crap.". On the evidence of what you provide, you have no arguement. None. You argue that someone who is now a private citizen should be held to the same standard as someone in service to this nation? That is a crap arguement.

You are an agent provocateur, nothing more.

First of all, not once did I say he should be held to the same standard as a government employee.  In fact, I have said quite the opposite in a couple of posts.  I specifically said that I believe he is free to do whatever work he wants as a private citizen.  Perhaps you, Teeps74, should grow up and brush up on your reading comprehension skills.

As for facts, they have been laid out; Hillier said he wouldn't become a lobbyist - He is now employed by a lobbying firm.  These are facts.  I am not claiming to know the exact significance of them.  I am just a bit surprised to see him in a position where the good of the CF and the good of the people he represents may one day be at odds with one another.  Who does he choose then?  The people who pay him or the CF?  For a man who has made his image and reputation by representing the good of little guy(the individual soldier), he is risking that same reputation when he does, or at least appears to, represent the good of the contractors.  I don't know what will happen, but nobody knows better than the General that perception is very important.  He was a master at controling it during his tenure as CDS.

 

[neilinkorea]

Me thinks FFNA could be Army Goon or CogDiss.....

Why the derision for the best CDS we've had in 30 years?

Not trying to deride the man.  Just because he did a good job doesn't mean he should be able to get a free pass on everything.  Don't some of you who feel strongly about the great reputation Hillier has think he is risking it a bit by being associated with the lobbying profession?  Money clouds the judgement of all men.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Not trying to deride the man. 

It certainly doesn't seem that way.

Just because he did a good job doesn't mean he should be able to get a free pass on everything.

"Good" is such an understatement of what I personally think Gen Hillier accomplished as the CDS.  I've watched the man from short distances several times, giving a briefing to troops and once during an exercise he came to.  Have you?  Please elaborate on how he is getting a free ride.  No wait...I retract that statement.  Please don't elaborate...on anything.

Don't some of you who feel strongly about the great reputation Hillier has think he is risking it a bit by being associated with the lobbying profession?

No.  I do agree with the great reputation statement though.  Might be the only thing you said that doesn't belong on a manure-spreader. 

Money clouds the judgement of all men.

So if you aren't rich, what is your excuse?
:

Personally, I think your statements and BS are insulting to a great former CDS, a great man and a proud Canadian. 

 

[neilinkorea]

It certainly doesn't seem that way.

"Good" is such an understatement of what I personally think Gen Hillier accomplished as the CDS.  I've watched the man from short distances several times, giving a briefing to troops and once during an exercise he came to.  Have you?  Please elaborate on how he is getting a free ride.  No wait...I retract that statement.  Please don't elaborate...on anything.

No.  I do agree with the great reputation statement though.  Might be the only thing you said that doesn't belong on a manure-spreader. 

So if you aren't rich, what is your excuse?
:

Personally, I think your statements and BS are insulting to a great former CDS, a great man and a proud Canadian. 

Oh, you've stood near him.  Why didn't you say so.  It must be like you can see into his soul now.  You say my statements are insulting to the man(which I don't agree with), but you didn't say factually incorrect.  The truth is only insulting if there is something going on that perhaps shouldn't be.  All I'm saying is that the line of work he is getting into could put him in an awkward position.  Then the attack start from all the members of the Hillier Youth.  He was a great CDS, but he is still a human being.  No person is as good, or as bad, as we believe them to be.  The cult of personality that rises up around leaders of any kind is crazy.  We should put principles before personality. 

I hope Hillier has a prosperous and personally rewarding career after his military service.  I don't think he will behave in a manner that is anything less than honorable.  However, the kind of work he will be involved in/surrounded by, leaves the purest intentions open to negative interpretation.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Oh, you've stood near him.  Why didn't you say so.  It must be like you can see into his soul now. 

No, thats not what I said.  I did have the pleasure of being present for a 2 hour briefing he gave to a group of Officers, WOs, NCOs and soldiers and was briefly introduced to him that evening.  I was on a joint Army/Navy Ex that he was present for 3+ years ago.  A highschool friend of mine was in a position where he worked for the General up close and personal on a daily basis for an extended period, travelled with him every where he went, and that friend told me many things about the General that increased my loyalty to and respect of the man.

The rest of your post is not worth anymore keystrokes.

 

[OldSolduer]

FFNA....your smart a$$ remarks and retorts are not conducive to a good discussion. The mods will be on you in a second. Just a warning.

How about General Boyle, who retired and went on to be a VP in McDonnell-Douglas immediately after his retirement?

 

[dapaterson]

To be fair, Gen (ret'd) Hillier has been given a free ride fro mcritics (other tha a small lunatic fringe).  An objective assessment of his tenure is needed.  While many of his efforts were entirely laudable, he must also bear responsibility for such abominations as the stand up of the dot COM headquarters, and the utter confusion of C2 those introduced.

Unforutnately, he's still too recent a CDS for there to be anything resembling an objective assessment of his tenure.

 

[Jed]

Point taken dapaterson, wrt objective look at the total body of excellent work accomplished by the former CDS, Gen Hillier. However, it appears to me that FFnA is in a hole and he is trying to get out of it by digging deeper.

I recommend he stop flinging the dirt around, reassess the situation, build a ladder with all the good advice he is receiving and  climb out of the hole.

 

[Greymatters]

Unforutnately, he's still too recent a CDS for there to be anything resembling an objective assessment of his tenure. 

Im sure someone out there is compiling a detailed and dissected history of his past for future publication even as we speak...

 

[dapaterson]

If it's a DND history publication, he's safe for several decades... the official histories of the Korean War are starting to come out now.

 

[Old Sweat]

The official history of the Canadian army in Korea was published in 1966 or 13 years after the end of hostilities.

 

[tango22a]

FFnA:

It seems to me that it is SO in fashion nowadays to belittle a person's accomplishments and bring him/her down to the belittler's level. I personally have never met Gen. Hillier, but from talking to friends and serving relatives I agree he was and is one of Canada's best-ever CDS.

So why don't you STFU and take your whinging remarks to another blog!!!!

Cheers (and don't bother replying),

tango22a

P.S.:
Since the hole you've dug for yourself on this forum is ever-deepening you MIGHT want to take more care .... you might end up in Kandahar.

 

[dapaterson]

The official history of the Canadian army in Korea was published in 1966 or 13 years after the end of hostilities.

Mea culpa.  Still, Gen (ret'd) Cod should be safe for a decade at least.  Or, if it's like the history of the Navy, better than 60 years (Vol 2 of the history of the Navy in WWII was published in 2007).

 

[Old Sweat]

General Hillier has a powerful, charismatic personality. He was the right person in the right place at the right time. This, however, does not mean that he is incapable of erring and in a big way. As with any poweful, dynamic leader the challenge for his staff is to muster the courage to bring forward the negatives as well as the positives of any course of action. (I just finished Lewis MacKenzie's book. In it he recalls that after shortly taking command of LFCA, he assembled his staff and told them that he was concerned that no one on his staff ever objected to anything he proposed or informed him that we tried that before, and it didn't work for the following reasons.)  The staff do their boss a disservice when they do not lay out the implications of any course of action. This can be even more difficult if the staff are reluctant to incur the boss's wrath or adopt the 'we are the army and we have a can do attitude. Don't say it is a bad idea, make the program work.'

Back to the main point, General Hillier was an exceptional CDS and probably the best one to date. All his decisions, however, were not the best course of action from our perespective. The question remains whether he was correct, or did we poor blighters in the trenches get in right? The jury is still out.

 

[neilinkorea]

FFnA:

It seems to me that it is SO in fashion nowadays to belittle a person's accomplishments and bring him/her down to the belittler's level. I personally have never met Gen. Hillier, but from talking to friends and serving relatives I agree he was and is one of Canada's best-ever CDS.

So why don't you STFU and take your whinging remarks to another blog!!!!

Cheers (and don't bother replying),

tango22a

P.S.:
Since the hole you've dug for yourself on this forum is ever-deepening you MIGHT want to take more care .... you might end up in Kandahar.

I am really starting to question the reading ability of the people who are replying to my posts.  I did not say one bad things about Hillier's past accomplishments or his tenure as CDS.  In fact, I have done quite the opposite.  I am pointing out that he has made a reversal in opinion about employment in a certain sector of the business world.  The fact that this was not even commented on by the posters on this forum shocked me because they are usually all over public figures/politicians/journalists/academics/and "military experts" who do the same.(that is change their view or opinion on a topic not decide to become a lobbyist)  The General seems to have gotten a free pass on this one.  Not a big deal in and of itself.  It just goes to the blind bias exhibited by the type of person who tells someone to STFU when a fact they don't particulary want to hear is pointed out.
This has become not a place for discussion but the repitition of commonly held beliefs.  If you don't agree with those beliefs, you get told to STFU or have people call you names.  If you don't idolize and hold in proper reverence the personalities that all others do, you are called an idiot.

While I agree that Hillier was a great CDS his success was as much a function of timing as it was of his effort and abilities.  Canada had been thrust into a war due to 9/11.  There was going to be increased military funding no matter who was in charge.  He was a master at using the media to get a lot of the credit for this.  He did politicize the office of the CDS during his time in it.  It will take some time to see if that was a good thing or a bad thing.

 

[OldSolduer]

The office of CDS was already politicized. It has been since the 70's and perhaps before that.

The worst example was General Boyle. He did exactly what he was told to by MND, with little regard for the soldiers, sailors and airpeople under his watch. I can't recall all the CDS's I served under.....just what I perceive to be bad examples and good examples.

Did General Hillier politicize the office.....perhaps, but in the favor of the soldiers, sailors and airpeople under his watch.