A Deeply Fractured US

[RangerRay]

This is totally, 100% a SCIF.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1667235403470872594

Looks legit…

 

[KevinB]

I guess you have zero faith in the bunch of Secret Service Agents that guard those same premises 24/7 and it's not whataboutism. It's about felonies and Capitol crimes commited by democrats, who have been caught time after time after time lying through their teeth and manufacturing evidence. It could be just as easily said that that's the way the FBI stacked them waiting for the truck. But you hate Trump, so that's all you need. If it's against him, you're happy, whether it's the truth or not. Nothing of what you say has been proven in court. You're just parroting the corrupt press.

I don’t think you understand what the USSS detail does for current and former Presidents.
Document handling isn’t in their job description, that’s for a WH CDO. Former Presidents don’t get a CDO (be it DoD, DoE, DS or IC entities).
For former Presidents physical site security isn’t their job description either. There is a resson PPD is called what it is —> Presidential Protective Detail.

There are some rumors that abound that one of 45’s PPD agents was a whistleblower to some of his antics with sharing documents to Foreign Nationals contrary to US National interests.

 

[TacticalTea]

Don't lose sight of the fact that Trump is in this fix due to his own arrogance, high-handedness, and inability to stop running at the mouth, and above all that what he did is illegal (in several respects) and looks to be easily provable. In particular, regardless of the crimes attached to merely possessing the documents, he's on the hook for the self-inflicted jeopardies of false statements and obstruction. What others did or have (or have not) been held to account for isn't relevant to the legal questions. At best, the matter will be settled (plea deal or jury findings) before the primaries begin. At worst, matters will be allowed to drag out through the primaries and perhaps beyond.

Since people are discussing it as a matter of political strategy, it's obvious that some on one side would like the matter to drag on in order to soil the Republican primary, and some on the other side are completely aware of this - there's no plausible "oh, this is just the way these things unfold" deniability. They know, we know they know, they know we know they know, etc. The risk of not winding up before Christmas so that voters have a clear guilty/not-guilty resolution to incorporate into their decision making is that an increased chance of election is granted to Trump - voters will be weighing an undecided documents trial against an appearance of major bribery, and their standard is more likely to be "balance of probability" than "proof beyond reasonable doubt". No-one has come forward yet to explain what kind of awesome services the Biden clan or its web of LLCs offers that merits millions of dollars, mostly from foreigners.

The incessantly repeated idea that Democrat leadership is somehow impatient to charge Trump is ridiculous and just another room-temperature IQ conspiracy theory. Merrick Garland is just about the least vindictive individual Biden could have picked, and the prosecution has been taking so God damn long precisely because they want to avoid any appearance of impropriety.

On the other hand, you've got Republicans openly threatening to weaponize the judiciary at the next opportunity.

Cultists can cry foul and go on with their whataboutism all day long. Fact is, if there had been any criminal wrongdoing on the part of Democrats, Trump had four years to fix the system if it was broken, or greenlight prosecutorial action if necessary (as Biden has), and he did manage to appoint numerous conservative judges and secure a majority in SCOTUS.

If Democrats are criminals, blame Trump for protecting them.

As to your point, Brad, obviously the best for everyone would be for this to be wrapped up quickly, as the prosecutor indicated, but we all know every trick will be pulled and the appeals process will drag on for years. Trump will probably die of old age before this is all over.

Speaking generally: It's entirely possible to be right-wing and not a complete nutjob. See Romney, Murkowski, Kinzinger, McCain, O'Toole, etc.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

I don’t think you understand what the USSS detail does for current and former Presidents.
Document handling isn’t in their job description, that’s for a WH CDO. Former Presidents don’t get a CDO (be it DoD, DoE, DS or IC entities).
For former Presidents physical site security isn’t their job description either. There is a resson PPD is called what it is —> Presidential Protective Detail.

There are some rumors that abound that one of 45’s PPD agents was a whistleblower to some of his antics with sharing documents to Foreign Nationals contrary to US National interests.

Sorry I got the terms wrong Kev. Is the PPD not secret,service guys? I never said a word about them handling documents. As far as rumours go this whole thread his mostly rumours, innuendo and wishful thinking. There is very little proven fact here at all.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

The incessantly repeated idea that Democrat leadership is somehow impatient to charge Trump is ridiculous and just another room-temperature IQ conspiracy theory. Merrick Garland is just about the least vindictive individual Biden could have picked, and the prosecution has been taking so God damn long precisely because they want to avoid any appearance of impropriety.

On the other hand, you've got Republicans openly threatening to weaponize the judiciary at the next opportunity.

Cultists can cry foul and go on with their whataboutism all day long. Fact is, if there had been any criminal wrongdoing on the part of Democrats, Trump had four years to fix the system if it was broken, or greenlight prosecutorial action if necessary (as Biden has), and he did manage to appoint numerous conservative judges and secure a majority in SCOTUS.

If Democrats are criminals, blame Trump for protecting them.

As to your point, Brad, obviously the best for everyone would be for this to be wrapped up quickly, as the prosecutor indicated, but we all know every trick will be pulled and the appeals process will drag on for years. Trump will probably die of old age before this is all over.

Speaking generally: It's entirely possible to be right-wing and not a complete nutjob. See Romney, Murkowski, Kinzinger, McCain, O'Toole, etc.

In your layman's internet opinion.

 

[brihard]

Sorry I got the terms wrong Kev. Is the PPD not secret,service guys? I never said a word about them handling documents. As far as rumours go this whole thread his mostly rumours, innuendo and wishful thinking. There is very little proven fact here at all.

Did you actually read the 49 page indictment? Paragraph 12 explicitly notes that USSS was not responsible for the protection of the boxes, nor aware of their specific contents, so this has already been addressed by investigators.

You’ve accused us of having “zero faith” in the USSS, or calling their credibility into question. That’s false. I’m sure we all trust them to do their job. We don’t expect them to do what isn’t; and besides that, simply having police/peace officers around in no way mitigates abject failures to handle classified documents in the manner prescribed by law. You don’t get to stash a few dozen boxes of classified info in a storage unit or a bathroom and say “it’s ok, the bodyguards have it”. That’s not at all how sensitive compartmentalized information works.

I suspect you have not actually read the indictment based on you missing this. I suggest doing so.

 

[Brad Sallows]

The incessantly repeated idea that Democrat leadership is somehow impatient to charge Trump is ridiculous and just another room-temperature IQ conspiracy theory. Merrick Garland is just about the least vindictive individual Biden could have picked, and the prosecution has been taking so God damn long precisely because they want to avoid any appearance of impropriety.

On the other hand, you've got Republicans openly threatening to weaponize the judiciary at the next opportunity.

Cultists can cry foul and go on with their whataboutism all day long. Fact is, if there had been any criminal wrongdoing on the part of Democrats, Trump had four years to fix the system if it was broken, or greenlight prosecutorial action if necessary (as Biden has), and he did manage to appoint numerous conservative judges and secure a majority in SCOTUS.

If Democrats are criminals, blame Trump for protecting them.

This has nothing to do with the USSC. The DoJ is at the heart of this, and the DoJ has a lot of political appointees. Trump passed on the opportunity to go after Clinton irrespective of what he said on the campaign trail, which was a smart thing to do for the sake of defusing partisan political tensions. The action meant more than the words.

The DoJ has somehow managed to sit on a simple investigation, against Hunter Biden, for a false statement on a firearm background check, for years. The objectivity of the people involved is in question. Here's the form, there's the evidence of drug use (probably from Hunter's own hand), here's the plea deal. Or, end the investigation and file it. Ditto the IRS investigation for tax evasion - doesn't ordinarily take years. The allegations of Joe Biden being bribed have been around for about 6 years, and have about as much foundation as some of the key pretexts used to go after Trump.

Certainly some Democrats have been eager to go after Trump. Your multiverse must have merged with mine after branching a while back. In mine, there were Democrats calling for impeachments and investigations even before they had any particular crime in mind. Special prize to the handful who were announcing their intent to find grounds for impeachment even before the inauguration - I mean elected federal politicians, not the "grassroots" ordinary rabble.

 

[dimsum]

Whatever Vice's views, if the messages, etc are true then that's concerning.

‘We Need to Start Killing’: Trump’s Far-Right Supporters Are Threatening Civil War

Within minutes of Trump’s indictment, supporters lit up social media platforms with violent threats and calls for civil war.

www.vice.com

 

[brihard]

A pretty clean and informed rundown of some of the national security implications of what’s revealed in the indictment, including both the knowns and unknowns.

One of the things that jumped out to me was some of the classified information control systems listed in the classification headers, including SI, TK, and HCS. A few are also redacted, meaning they’re worse than that.

Another point is that 31 docs have been charged, each individually, but many more than 31 were recovered. A potential implication of this is that DOJ picked documents that could be safely used in court, and, conversely, that some of the others may be more sensitive still and that the intelligence community is unwilling to let the prosecution use them.

National Security Implications of Trump’s Indictment: A Damage Assessment

The former president's retention of highly classified intelligence has potentially grave implications for U.S. national security.

www.justsecurity.org

 

[Halifax Tar]

Whatever Vice's views, if the messages, etc are true then that's concerning.

‘We Need to Start Killing’: Trump’s Far-Right Supporters Are Threatening Civil War

Within minutes of Trump’s indictment, supporters lit up social media platforms with violent threats and calls for civil war.

www.vice.com

Its the whole "is the juice worth the squeeze?" Question...

I predicted chasing down a former Pres, right or wrong, will not end well. And maybe these are the first signs of trouble.

 

[Brad Sallows]

People blowing off steam. These aren't the first people in the past few years to call for violence and/or civil war over their disappointment that their pet political issue isn't going their way (presidency, senate, supreme court, environmental policy, etc).

 

[brihard]

People blowing off steam. These aren't the first people in the past few years to call for violence and/or civil war over their disappointment that their pet political issue isn't going their way (presidency, senate, supreme court, environmental policy, etc).

And would that have been your take on January 5th?

It would be imprudent to blindly assume that there aren’t people willing and prepared to use violence over this. MAGA has a significant cult-like following, and Donald Trump is their ideological figurehead. There is absolutely a potential for ideologically motivated violent extremism out of this. There are already prominent figures egging it on.

 

[Brad Sallows]

And would that have been your take on January 5th?

It would be imprudent to blindly assume that there aren’t people willing and prepared to use violence over this. MAGA has a significant cult-like following, and Donald Trump is their ideological figurehead. There is absolutely a potential for ideologically motivated violent extremism out of this. There are already prominent figures egging it on.

For the overwhelming majority of participants, yes. Even the ones that have people clutching pearls fell a long way short of storming the palace and overthrowing the government. Same for "Convoy".

A lot of people fantasize about violence. Some talk bombastically about it. Very few are prepared to use it. Even fewer actually do use it. There is always potential for violence, from many political orientations and cause followers.

None of these "risks" has come within orders of magnitude of the damage caused by the legitimate government that pretends to quake in fear. I have perspective on where the real risks to human life and liberty are; I invite others to obtain some for themselves.

 

[KevinB]

For the overwhelming majority of participants, yes. Even the ones that have people clutching pearls fell a long way short of storming the palace and overthrowing the government.

I know a fair amount of USSS personnel, and most of those are fellow gun enthusiasts who are traditional Republicans.
When some of the mob that broke into Congress where marching around saying ‘Hang Mike Pence”, a lot of folks on his detail and others - they and many others started questioning the values of DJT and the MAGA movement.

Same for "Convoy".

A lot of people fantasize about violence. Some talk bombastically about it. Very few are prepared to use it. Even fewer actually do use it. There is always potential for violence, from many political orientations and cause followers.

Mobs are unruly and messy, and generally snowball way beyond what any one individual would do on their own. Breaking into the Capital and looking for Politicians is insurrection.

I know many folks who went to the rally, ever one I know did a U Turn and went home when the crowd started to push barricades.

None of these "risks" has come within orders of magnitude of the damage caused by the legitimate government that pretends to quake in fear. I have perspective on where the real risks to human life and liberty are; I invite others to obtain some for themselves.

I think you are a little to quick to dismiss what could have occurred inside the Capital.
Much like Sharks in a feeding frenzy a Mob can go insane very easily.

The fact that people died that day for nothing is an awful tragedy that at the end of the day, DJT needs to bear a large share of the burden for.

You can’t be the ‘Law and Order’ party if so cede the moral high ground and act like savages and children.

 

[mariomike]

Even the ones that have people clutching pearls fell a long way short of storming the palace and overthrowing the government. Same for "Convoy".

Hopefully it does not spread to Canada.

My predictability does become apparent when the Trump toxin spreads to Canadian topics.

I regret (more than you can imagine) that my preference for facts and thinking is at odds with the majority of group-think in this thread. Yes, I've done a reality-check, wondering if I'm 'the only one in step,' and while I can understand some of the emotions behind this 'movement' I just can't understand the suspension of thought that embracing it requires (unless that sort of thing was never one's strong suit anyway). Oh well.

As I've stated before, I'm more than happy to avoid this mess altogether..... if people would stop trying to drag Canada into the alt-garbage world -- in this, and other, threads.

 

[brihard]

For the overwhelming majority of participants, yes. Even the ones that have people clutching pearls fell a long way short of storming the palace and overthrowing the government. Same for "Convoy".

A lot of people fantasize about violence. Some talk bombastically about it. Very few are prepared to use it. Even fewer actually do use it. There is always potential for violence, from many political orientations and cause followers.

None of these "risks" has come within orders of magnitude of the damage caused by the legitimate government that pretends to quake in fear. I have perspective on where the real risks to human life and liberty are; I invite others to obtain some for themselves.

The large majority, yes- but not an ‘overwhelming’ one if they fail to overwhelm, and stop, violence committed by others. Unfortunately, the resort to armed violence, either deliberate or hasty, can be very difficult to predict. In a large group setting, one or a few people can easily spark a powder keg.

In the past couple years we have seen armed groups attending legislatures, courthouses, etc. I can very easily imagine a concerted effort, at some point by some people, to block access to a courthouse where Trump criminal proceedings are being held. What then?

And we aren’t just talking randos. Kari Lake, fresh off losing her appeal of losing the gubernatorial election in Arizona, did a big speech yesterday where she said effectively (not verbatim but close) “if they want Trump they have to come through me and 75 million Americans” and “we’re card carrying members of the NRA, this isn’t a threat, it’s a public service announcement”. Is part of this more failed candidate grifting? Yeah probably. But if it inspires some to actually act, that’s less than ideal. She’s a leadership figure within the cult-wing of the MAGA movement, and she’s not alone.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1667384783792381952

You may be willing to just wave off these risks, but I assure you a whole lot of people with skin in the game are a lot more concerned about what even a small number of violent and deranged fools might do over this. A lot of people are extremely invested in Trump and Trumpism as a constituent part of their identity. A threat to him is spun as a threat to them. It’s a powder keg.

 

[Remius]

Plenty of people being given bad advice and spurred on to act. Then act flabbergasted when held responsible and accountable for their actions.

 

[brihard]

Plenty of people being given bad advice and spurred on to act. Then act flabbergasted when held responsible and accountable for their actions.

Or they didn’t expect to lose.

 

[brihard]

For anyone interested in nerding out a bit on prosecuting Espionage Act charges, this is an interesting read on the balance between trial fairness and open courts, and safeguarding classified information that’s relied upon to prosecute or defend a charge. It specifically speaks to one of the specific charges that Trump faces many individual counts of. I found it interesting. The challenges described are reasonably common to various legal systems, so the general issues, if not the specific processes, are also informative to what Canada would struggle with in prosecuting a matter where classified info is involved.

Expert Backgrounder: Secret Evidence in Public Trials

An expert backgrounder on how, in prosecutions for mishandling classified documents, the Classified Information Procedures Act (CIPA) is designed to protect both U.S. national security secrets and defendants' rights.

www.justsecurity.org

 

[Brad Sallows]

And yet I don't recall a lot of shooting and explosions. Violent revolution, Tuesday for sure. Meanwhile, we find out Nancy Pelosi was so threatened she had time to play for a camera.