A Deeply Fractured US

[Colin Parkinson]

Meanwhile at least one Congressman seems to be switched on

 

[FJAG]

I expect that there are hundreds of reasonable and knowledgeable Congressmen and women. Unfortunately all the oxygen is consumed by the hundred or so on both sides who are a waste of rations.

Not a unique problem to the US.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

I expect that there are hundreds of reasonable and knowledgeable Congressmen and women. Unfortunately all the oxygen is consumed by the hundred or so on both sides who are a waste of rations.

Not a unique problem to the US.

Or Canada.

 

[Mick]

Irrelevant? So the other people - the followers, the cults of personality - don't matter? You've meant to only be discussing the principals (Trump, Clinton, Biden)? Either people blackguarding democratic institutions and processes - especially indefinitely - is a problem, or it isn't. Choose one.

I'll say it again: there is no comparison to be made between Bush-Gore in 2000, and Trump-Biden in 2020; the former was a legitimate legal matter (that the courts actually deemed worthy of hearing, by the way) that was settled, and the results accepted by Gore. The latter is simply Trump repeating the "stolen election" lie, without any shred of evidence. Gore sought remedy through legal means and respected the outcome. Trump has not.

Trump's supporters can't be expected to take the high road. From their perspective, they're owed a lot of payback by all the other people who pushed false information for political gain. For example, start with the Clinton-approved gambit to tie Trump to Russian interference (ie. the Steele stuff). Clinton, her campaign insiders, the intermediaries at Perkins-Coie and Fusion GPS, Steele, Steele's flunkies, the government people who salted the media with the lies, the media who promulgated the lies, the people who used the lies to advance investigations - Trump's supporters probably have a long list of heads they want to see on spikes before they'll trust "the system" again.

I guess we'll see what Durham is able to substantiate.

So many people keep emphasizing how dishonest and ignorant Trump and his supporters are. What foolishness would it be to expect them to improve? Obviously, however, their behaviour justifies whatever means are necessary to take them down, as has apparently been the case since roughly mid-2016. It would be unreasonable to expect the decency/decorum/dignity/rule-of-law folks to unilaterally abide by their own rules.

No disagreement from me that any effort to undermine the perceived legitimacy of elections should be condemned.

 

[Brad Sallows]

Durham doesn't have to substantiate anything; everything that matters is known. All he could do is bring charges, if any of it were illegal rather than merely unethical and dishonest. I doubt any will be brought; if it's a DC jury, I doubt there would be any convictions. I doubt Durham has any more charges to bring; all that remains is to see whether the DoJ releases his report. If that happens I expect the same people who argued strenuously that Mueller's report mattered a great deal, to argue that nothing in Durham's report matters at all.

 

[Mick]

Durham doesn't have to substantiate anything; everything that matters is known. All he could do is bring charges, if any of it were illegal rather than merely unethical and dishonest. I doubt any will be brought; if it's a DC jury, I doubt there would be any convictions. I doubt Durham has any more charges to bring; all that remains is to see whether the DoJ releases his report. If that happens I expect the same people who argued strenuously that Mueller's report mattered a great deal, to argue that nothing in Durham's report matters at all.

Either both reports matter, or neither does.

 

[Brad Sallows]

Either both reports matter, or neither does.

That isn't axiomatically true. Mueller's report lost a lot of credibility by stressing that something investigators weren't charged to find (exoneration) was something they didn't find, and also when its drafters whinged about delays releasing it after they failed - in spite of clear instructions - to include the expected redactions. If Durham's report simply notes what was found without trying to spin it politically, it will be more valuable.

 

[Mick]

That isn't axiomatically true. Mueller's report lost a lot of credibility by stressing that something investigators weren't charged to find (exoneration) was something they didn't find, and also when its drafters whinged about delays releasing it after they failed - in spite of clear instructions - to include the expected redactions. If Durham's report simply notes what was found without trying to spin it politically, it will be more valuable.

Durham's investigation hasn't been without its own difficulties. But as you've noted, either report is liable to be dismissed based on one's partisan leanings.

 

[Brad Sallows]

I'm being slightly facetious. But, in advance I will stipulate that if Durham's report is as blatantly political, it too ought to be deprecated.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Well trudeau managed to influence biden on at least one thing

 

[Kirkhill]

Either both reports matter, or neither does.

A book is a book. It is an opinion. Regardless of the professed authority of the author. I get to read both books and make up my own mind. Even if a Judge or Jury has already been paid for their opinion on the authors' opinions.

 

[Brad Sallows]

I wouldn't call my old physics and calculus textbooks "opinions". Nor are the findings included in a report opinions; they're just findings. The only opinions should be along the lines of recommendations to charge, or not. No editorializing about probable guilt or non-exoneration.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

When is an election stolen? Is at the ballot box only? Or does it include, lies, fabricated misinformation, meddling in social media, etc? All in order to persuade the electorate that your opponent is something they are not, to demonize and disuade with untruthful, false, fabricated conspiracies? Where is the start point?

Biden Torched After Ex-CIA Chief Admits Hiring Spies to Write Fake Hunter Biden Laptop Letter - Truth Press

Rep. Jim Jordan, R-Ohio, said then-candidate Joe Biden wrongly made the letter from 51 intelligence officials claiming Hunter Biden’s laptop was Russian disinformation “seem organic” despite allegedly knowing his soon-to-be State Department chief helped “strategize” it. The letter, signed by 51...

truthpress.com

 

[KevinB]

When is an election stolen? Is at the ballot box only? Or does it include, lies, fabricated misinformation, meddling in social media, etc? All in order to persuade the electorate that your opponent is something they are not, to demonize and disuade with untruthful, false, fabricated conspiracies? Where is the start point?

Biden Torched After Ex-CIA Chief Admits Hiring Spies to Write Fake Hunter Biden Laptop Letter - Truth Press

Rep. Jim Jordan, R-Ohio, said then-candidate Joe Biden wrongly made the letter from 51 intelligence officials claiming Hunter Biden’s laptop was Russian disinformation “seem organic” despite allegedly knowing his soon-to-be State Department chief helped “strategize” it. The letter, signed by 51...

truthpress.com

The FBI had already confirmed the info was legit long before that occurred.
To me there MSM deserves a major black eye for that. As they played along with the game it was fake.

Both sides are guilty of criminal acts, and for the sake of democracy both sides need to commit to cleaning up the messes they have made.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

But it's not a democracy, based on the good of the collective. It's a Republic based on individual rights.

Based on current information uncovered by a Congressional oversight, the letter was a fabrication. The trail and implementation has been laid out by one of the top perpetrators, to Congress. The letter was false information.

Of course we haven't even touched on the the misdirection and suppression that occured based on the laptop itself.

The letter and signatures are just a small part of that and has become a chink in Biden's armour.

 

[KevinB]

But it's not a democracy, based on the good of the collective. It's a Republic based on individual rights.

It’s a democratic republic.

Based on current information uncovered by a Congressional oversight, the letter was a fabrication. The trail and implementation has been laid out by one of the top perpetrators, to Congress. The letter was false information.

Of course we haven't even touched on the the misdirection and suppression that occured based on the laptop itself.

The letter and signatures are just a small part of that and has become a chink in Biden's armour.

Don’t forget it’s not just the Democrats playing games.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Jordan torches Biden: He made Hunter laptop intel letter 'seem organic' after Blinken outed as 'impetus'

House Judiciary Committee Chairman Jim Jordan, R-Ohio, sounded off on "The Ingraham Angle" following testimony from former CIA acting Director Michael Morell.

www.foxnews.com

What kind of game is searching for the truth? Or exposing corruption?

 

[OceanBonfire]

....

Fox News reaches $787.5 million settlement in Dominion’s defamation lawsuit - POLITICO

The son withdrew his lawsuit elsewhere shortly after Fox' settlement...

Murdoch claimed he was defamed by Keane’s column about the U.S. congressional investigation into the Jan. 6, 2021, insurrection at the Capitol building which Crikey published in June last year under the headlines: “Trump is a confirmed unhinged traitor. And Murdoch is his unindicted co-conspirator.”

...

Private Media chief executive Will Hayward said his company, which is valued at less than 20 million Australian dollars ($13.4 million), stood by Crikey’s description of the Murdochs as conspirators in the Capitol violence.

...

Rolph said one of the reasons Murdoch dropped the case was that Crikey was trying to expand its defenses by incorporating revelations from the Dominion litigation.

Rupert Murdoch's son Lachlan ends Australian defamation suit

Fox Corp. chief executive Lachlan Murdoch has dropped his defamation lawsuit against Australian news website Crikey. The announcement Friday cited the U.S. settlement in which Fox News agreed to pay almost $800 million over its lies involving the 2020 U.S. election. Rupert Murdoch’s son filed...

apnews.com

 

[Brad Sallows]

When is an election stolen? Is at the ballot box only? Or does it include, lies, fabricated misinformation, meddling in social media, etc? All in order to persuade the electorate that your opponent is something they are not, to demonize and disuade with untruthful, false, fabricated conspiracies? Where is the start point?

Misinformation/disinformation probably falls under the heading "election interference". For example, Russian (clumsy, miniscule, ineffective) social media efforts during the 2016 election. "Stealing" an election usually describes efforts to create or destroy actual cast votes.

 

[OceanBonfire]

Republicans who control the state Legislature want to alter the 2024 Senate primary in Montana so that only the top two candidates, no matter their party, advance to the November election. Past races for Tester’s seat were close enough that many Republicans blamed third party candidates for draining away potential GOP votes and giving the Democrat the victory.

Critics blasted the proposal during a Montana House committee meeting as a blatant attempt to rig the election.

Montana GOP seeks to bar 3rd parties from key US Senate race

Libertarians lined up with Democrats on Friday against a proposal that would effectively block third party candidates from next year’s Montana U.S. Senate election. Republicans are trying to consolidate opposition to incumbent Jon Tester in a race that's pivotal for control of the Senate. State...

apnews.com

'Stamp of approval'
Elon Musk promised to make Twitter the "most accurate source of information about the world" but he has repeatedly used his own account to amplify false claims from some of the most notorious disinformers, according to an AFP analysis.

'Stamp of approval': Twitter's Musk amplifies misinformation

Elon Musk promised to make Twitter the "most accurate source of information about the world," but he has repeatedly used his own account to amplify false claims from some of the most notorious disinformers on the internet, according to an AFP analysis of his online activity.Musk has repeatedly...

news.yahoo.com

The right-wing network still faces a $2.7 billion lawsuit from another electronic voting company -- Smartmatic -- which claims that Fox News broadcast lies that "decimated" its business prospects.

"Dominion's litigation exposed some of the misconduct and damage caused by Fox's disinformation campaign. Smartmatic will expose the rest," Smartmatic attorney J. Erik Connolly vowed in a statement.

He added that the company was "committed to clearing its name, recouping the significant damage done to the company, and holding Fox accountable for undermining democracy."

Despite settlement, Fox News legal woes are far from over

Fox News's massive payout to settle a defamation case doesn't end its legal woes, with the network facing other lawsuits and shareholder action over its broadcasting of election conspiracy theories.The right-wing network still faces a $2.7 billion lawsuit from another electronic voting company...

news.yahoo.com

Leaked audio recordings of top GOP strategist Cleta Mitchell’s presentation reveal Mitchell called on the GOP to limit voting on college campuses, same-day voter registration, and automatic mailing of ballots to registered voters.

Republicans’ Big Plan for 2024 Is to Make It Harder for College Kids to Vote

Leaked audio from a top Republican strategist reveals where the party’s priorities are.

newrepublic.com