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A Deeply Fractured US

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The only places worth looking are the close districts in close states. That would mean a handful of districts in each of three or four states in any typical presidential election. The US could probably tighten up the trustworthiness of its presidential elections by routinely selecting the five closest districts in each of the four closest states for a deeply invasive audit after each election - 20 audits total. Attach ruinous penalties to anyone caught f*cking around and less ruinous penalties to the merely "incompetent" (eg. sudden inexplicable failure to provide the usual amount of paper for ballots).
 
The only places worth looking are the close districts in close states. That would mean a handful of districts in each of three or four states in any typical presidential election. The US could probably tighten up the trustworthiness of its presidential elections by routinely selecting the five closest districts in each of the four closest states for a deeply invasive audit after each election - 20 audits total. Attach ruinous penalties to anyone caught f*cking around and less ruinous penalties to the merely "incompetent" (eg. sudden inexplicable failure to provide the usual amount of paper for ballots).
This seems reasonable, in addition to the other safeguards that currently exist.

In your opinion, are the penalties for those who attempted to block the counting of electoral college votes in Congress, or attempted to submit fake "alternate electors" to be counted, harsh enough?
 
Too harsh (assuming you don't mean common penalties for violence), especially treatment during time leading up to trials. People without histories of violence should be released pending court appearances at least as often as people with violent criminal histories.

Efforts to undermine elections before and during are much more damaging than protests and obstruction after the fact. The former undermine trust in a way that the latter do not. The worst damage anyone can do to "democracy" is undermine trust in the way votes are cast and measured. It wasn't that no-one knew what the electoral college outcome should be or had any trouble discerning which electors were legitimate under the rules established well beforehand; it was that the formal process of declaring it was obstructed.

An obvious objection is that the election deniers managed to, at least among some people, cast doubt on the result (ie. undermine trust). But we can't measure that in the absence of the preceding four-plus years of efforts by people inside and outside government to de-legitimize and overturn Trump's election. No-one who attempts to discuss this without acknowledging the corrosive effect (on trust) of years of institutional systemic malfeasance and norm-bending, on Trump and his adherents, is being realistic about measuring a human response to untrustworthy behaviours. It should be obvious that after years of being f*cked over, some people will readily believe that they are still being f*cked over.
 
Throughout the entire history of the US, gaming the democratic system was going on. Gerrymandering, vote buy, voter harass

This seems reasonable, in addition to the other safeguards that currently exist.

In your opinion, are the penalties for those who attempted to block the counting of electoral college votes in Congress, or attempted to submit fake "alternate electors" to be counted, harsh enough?
By blocking counting do you mean objecting to a state's votes? Objecting is legal as long as it is in writing and signed by 1 House and 1 Senate member. Democratic lawmakers have done it before, recently after every Republican victory.
The objectors to the 2016 election were:
  • Jim McGovern (D-Mass.) objected to Alabama's votes.
  • Jamie Raskin (D-Md.) objected to Florida's votes.
  • Pramila Jayapal (D-Wash.) objected to Georgia's votes.
  • Raul Grijalva (D-Ariz.) objected to North Carolina's votes.
  • Sheila Jackson Lee (D-Texas) objected to the votes from North Carolina in addition to votes from South Carolina and Wisconsin. She also stood up and objected citing "massive voter suppression" after Mississippi's votes were announced.
  • Barbara Lee (D-Calif.) brought up allegations of Russian interference in the election and malfunctioning voting machines when she objected following the announcement of Michigan's votes.
  • Maxine Waters (D-Calif) rose and said, "I do not wish to debate. I wish to ask 'Is there one United States senator who will join me in this letter of objection?'" after the announcement of Wyoming's votes.
Article Link
Democrats Have Been Shameless About Your Presidential Vote Too
After the 2000, 2004 and 2016 elections, they objected to counting electoral totals.
In January 2001, Representative Alcee Hastings of Florida objected to counting Florida’s electoral votes. The history of Democratic efforts to contest the outcomes of presidential elections is not a history worth emulating.Credit...Paul Hosefros/The New York Times


By Derek T. Muller
Mr. Muller is a law professor at the University of Iowa who specializes in election law.
• Jan. 6, 2021
• As Republicans in Congress prepare to formally contest the outcome of the 2020 presidential election on Wednesday, many of them have cited precedent for their effort: similar complaints lodged by Democrats in other presidential elections. After Republican victories in 2000, 2004 and 2016, for instance, Democrats in Congress used the formal counting of electoral votes as an opportunity to challenge election results.
But the history of Democratic efforts to contest the outcomes of presidential elections is not a history worth emulating. On the contrary, it only underscores that the certification of a president-elect’s victory by the House and Senate is an improper forum for the airing of political grievances and an inappropriate occasion to readjudicate the decisions of the states concerning things like vote tallies, recounts and audits.
While Congress has the power to decline to count electoral votes, it has done so only in extreme situations in the aftermath of the Civil War — when, for instance, a state was deemed to lack a functioning government. The Electoral Count Act of 1887, which sets the rules for Congress to count electoral votes, was enacted with the presumption that state procedures are trustworthy. The act instructs Congress to defer to state judgments when a state resolves controversies over the appointment of electors.
The act also requires broad political consensus to decline to count electoral votes. It instructs that on Jan. 6 after a presidential election, the president of the Senate (typically the vice president) presides over a session of the two chambers. If a member of Congress wishes to object to counting a state’s electoral votes, a member of the House and a member of the Senate must sign a written objection. The chambers separate for up to two hours of debate. If majorities of both chambers agree to the objection, the objection stands. If not, the votes are counted.
Few objections were filed in accordance with the Electoral Count Act in the 20th century. But starting with George W. Bush’s victory in the 2000 presidential election, Democrats contested election results after every Republican win.
In January 2001, Representative Alcee Hastings of Florida objected to counting his state’s electoral votes because of “overwhelming evidence of official misconduct, deliberate fraud, and an attempt to suppress voter turnout.” Representative Sheila Jackson Lee of Texas referred to the “millions of Americans who have been disenfranchised by Florida’s inaccurate vote count.” Representative Maxine Waters of California characterized Florida’s electoral votes as “fraudulent.”
Vice President Al Gore presided over the meeting in 2001. He overruled these objections because no senator joined them. Part of the reason they didn’t join, presumably, was that Mr. Gore conceded the election a month earlier.
In January 2005, in the wake of Mr. Bush’s re-election, Democrats were more aggressive. Senator Barbara Boxer of California joined Representative Stephanie Tubbs Jones of Ohio to lodge a formal objection to Ohio’s electoral votes. The objection compelled Congress to spend two hours in debate, even though Mr. Bush won Ohio by more than 118,000 votes.
Representative Barbara Lee of California claimed that “the Democratic process was thwarted.” Representative Jerrold Nadler of New York said that the right to vote was “stolen.” Ms. Waters objected too, dedicating her objection to the documentary filmmaker Michael Moore, whose 2004 movie “Fahrenheit 9/11” painted a dark (and at times factually debatable) picture of the Bush presidency
The motion failed, but not before 31 members of the House, and Ms. Boxer in the Senate, voted to reject Ohio’s electoral votes — effectively voting to disenfranchise the people of Ohio in the Electoral College.
In January 2017, after Donald Trump’s victory, Democrats in Congress once again challenged the election outcome. Representative Jim McGovern of Massachusetts cited “the confirmed and illegal activities engaged by the government of Russia.” Ms. Lee of California argued that Michigan’s electoral votes should be thrown out because “people are horrified by the overwhelming evidence of Russian interference in our elections.” She also cited “the malfunction of 87 voting machines.”
There were objections against the votes in at least nine states. To his credit, Vice President Joe Biden rejected each objection on procedural grounds, stating that “there is no debate” and “it is over.”
Then as now, each member of Congress was within his or her rights to make an objection. But the objections were naïve at best, shameless at worst. Either way, the readiness of members of Congress to disenfranchise millions of Americans was disconcerting.
The last time Congress threw out all of a state’s electoral votes was in 1873. In addition to rejecting a portion of votes from Georgia (cast for a recently deceased candidate, Horace Greeley), Congress rejected Louisiana’s electoral votes because it concluded that the state lacked a functioning government, and it rejected Arkansas’s electoral votes for similarly grave reasons. Rejecting a state’s electoral vote is a disfavored remedy for extreme situations.
More recent efforts by Democrats to throw out electoral votes went nowhere in large part because the losing candidates — Mr. Gore, John Kerry and Hillary Clinton — had conceded the election and did not encourage Congress to reject the vote. This election is different, of course: Mr. Trump continues to argue that the election was “stolen” and “rigged,” and that “ballot stuffing” took place, and Vice President Mike Pence has indicated support for efforts to challenge the election outcome in light of those claims.
But there is no evidence to support those claims. State officials have certified the election results. Without more evidence (and none seems likely to come out), the electoral votes from every state should be accepted by all members of Congress — including all Republicans.
Derek T. Muller (@derektmuller) is a law professor at the University of Iowa.
 
"Blocking" I would assume to mean attempts to obstruct the entire process, not features of the process itself.
 
By blocking counting do you mean objecting to a state's votes? Objecting is legal as long as it is in writing and signed by 1 House and 1 Senate member. Democratic lawmakers have done it before, recently after every Republican victory.
The objectors to the 2016 election were:
  • Jim McGovern (D-Mass.) objected to Alabama's votes.
  • Jamie Raskin (D-Md.) objected to Florida's votes.
  • Pramila Jayapal (D-Wash.) objected to Georgia's votes.
  • Raul Grijalva (D-Ariz.) objected to North Carolina's votes.
  • Sheila Jackson Lee (D-Texas) objected to the votes from North Carolina in addition to votes from South Carolina and Wisconsin. She also stood up and objected citing "massive voter suppression" after Mississippi's votes were announced.
  • Barbara Lee (D-Calif.) brought up allegations of Russian interference in the election and malfunctioning voting machines when she objected following the announcement of Michigan's votes.
  • Maxine Waters (D-Calif) rose and said, "I do not wish to debate. I wish to ask 'Is there one United States senator who will join me in this letter of objection?'" after the announcement of Wyoming's votes.
Article Link
No, I mean invading the Capitol with the express intent to stop the count, as well as encouraging such actions.
 
Efforts to undermine elections before and during are much more damaging than protests and obstruction after the fact. The former undermine trust in a way that the latter do not. The worst damage anyone can do to "democracy" is undermine trust in the way votes are cast and measured. It wasn't that no-one knew what the electoral college outcome should be or had any trouble discerning which electors were legitimate under the rules established well beforehand; it was that the formal process of declaring it was obstructed.

An obvious objection is that the election deniers managed to, at least among some people, cast doubt on the result (ie. undermine trust). But we can't measure that in the absence of the preceding four-plus years of efforts by people inside and outside government to de-legitimize and overturn Trump's election. No-one who attempts to discuss this without acknowledging the corrosive effect (on trust) of years of institutional systemic malfeasance and norm-bending, on Trump and his adherents, is being realistic about measuring a human response to untrustworthy behaviours. It should be obvious that after years of being f*cked over, some people will readily believe that they are still being f*cked over.
So you would agree that constant, untrue, and unfounded charges of an election being "stolen" in an attempt to nullify previous results, and with a goal to "retake" a country in the next election must also be corrosive and detrimental to the perceived integrity of elections. Is this damage not equally dangerous to the democratic process?

Note that no inquiry (Republican- or Democrat- led) has to date been able to find any evidence that would change or call into question the results of the 2020 election.)
 
So you would agree that constant, untrue, and unfounded charges of an election being "stolen" in an attempt to nullify previous results, and with a goal to "retake" a country in the next election must also be corrosive and detrimental to the perceived integrity of elections. Is this damage not equally dangerous to the democratic process?

Note that no inquiry (Republican- or Democrat- led) has to date been able to find any evidence that would change or call into question the results of the 2020 election.)
Maybe; certainly not equally dangerous. Rhetorical carping after the fact is commonplace, and on the downstream side of the arrow of time. A lot of Democrats kept at the "stolen" 2000 election for a long time (some still are on it). Some doubted 2004 (Ohio results). Hillary Clinton herself conceded the 2016 result, but on several subsequent occasions characterized Trump as "illegitimate". Very few people seem to be worried that any of those undermined trust in elections.

It's interesting that these 2 things are true about threats to democratic institutions in the US: it's a fringe of the right that sweats the 2020 election; it's commonplace for Democrats to blackguard the USSC whenever they don't like a decision.
 
Rewriting the rules of the game just before the cup final may tend to erode the fans' sense of fairness.
 
Maybe; certainly not equally dangerous. Rhetorical carping after the fact is commonplace, and on the downstream side of the arrow of time. A lot of Democrats kept at the "stolen" 2000 election for a long time (some still are on it). Some doubted 2004 (Ohio results). Hillary Clinton herself conceded the 2016 result, but on several subsequent occasions characterized Trump as "illegitimate". Very few people seem to be worried that any of those undermined trust in elections.

It's interesting that these 2 things are true about threats to democratic institutions in the US: it's a fringe of the right that sweats the 2020 election; it's commonplace for Democrats to blackguard the USSC whenever they don't like a decision.
You have already asserted that efforts to undermine an election are "more damaging" before and during an election than efforts "after the fact". In a continuous election cycle, "after the fact" is "before" the next election, so I would argue that any effort to undermine or discredit is seriously damaging to democracy, no matter when it occurs.

I don't believe that Hillary has or had anywhere near the cult of personality Donald Trump has cultivated, so comparing the 2 isn't useful.

The first question to be asked (as a general rule, really) is some variation of "compared to what/who"?

A few Democrats lamenting Hillary Clinton's loss to Donald Trump in the immediate aftermath of the election is vastly different than Trump and supporters constantly asserting that the election was stolen despite a complete lack of evidence.

How can you argue that constantly repeating that lie (despite multiple investigations proving it to be completely unfounded) is not dangerous to confidence in the the integrity of American elections and democracy?
 
Complaining about an election after the fact, including asserting that it was fraudulent, is certainly less damaging than actual election fraud or the appearance of it during the election. After the election, at least the evidence is approximately known and can be examined. People are convinced by the explanations for sudden shifts in vote counts. Cult followings aren't a useful measure, even if it were untrue that Clinton has her own followers. On the individual level, it would be absurd to object to Ginni Thomas's claims on the grounds that she is a USSC justice's wife and dismiss Hillary Clinton's claims - they are both prominent people. Essentially Clinton and Trump are wearing the same shoe - complaining that the election each lost was somehow illegitimate. Common sense suggests the perceived-to-be-rational person doing so is more harmful than the wingnut.

Most people believe that the 2020 election lies are just lies. They can't be convinced otherwise. The people who believe the lies can't be convinced otherwise, either. I doubt the existence of a large number of people who haven't made up their minds one way or the other. Election deniers constantly repeating their denials and theories over and over isn't changing minds.

Distrust among Trump's followers is unlikely to improve. As the popular saying goes, a bunch of people decided to f*ck around to get Trump, and now everyone has "found out".
 
I seem to recall some defending Biden based on the 'unimpeachable' letter containing 51 signatures of intelligence people calling the laptop Russian disinformation. Biden even used it on the campaign trail, so it must've been true, right?

Some new stuff about that letter.

 
The letter didn't explicitly claim disinformation; the letter claimed the appearance of disinformation. That's an important detail that people keep leaving out. Obviously the signers had to be able to claim they didn't make a direct conclusion. Equally obviously the propaganda purpose was to mislead people into believing the direct conclusion.

Since Morell's information is testimony to Congress, all that's left is for people to choose a side between acceptable or unacceptable conduct of the people involved.

The letter came up not long ago when one of the players - I think Brennan - pointed out the distinction noted above. He was promptly dumped on by a bunch of people who noted that he didn't object at the time the letter was being successfully used to misinform.

[Add: another fine effort on the part of the people working so hard to restore trust.]
 
Complaining about an election after the fact, including asserting that it was fraudulent, is certainly less damaging than actual election fraud or the appearance of it during the election. After the election, at least the evidence is approximately known and can be examined. People are convinced by the explanations for sudden shifts in vote counts. Cult followings aren't a useful measure, even if it were untrue that Clinton has her own followers. On the individual level, it would be absurd to object to Ginni Thomas's claims on the grounds that she is a USSC justice's wife and dismiss Hillary Clinton's claims - they are both prominent people. Essentially Clinton and Trump are wearing the same shoe - complaining that the election each lost was somehow illegitimate. Common sense suggests the perceived-to-be-rational person doing so is more harmful than the wingnut.

Most people believe that the 2020 election lies are just lies. They can't be convinced otherwise. The people who believe the lies can't be convinced otherwise, either. I doubt the existence of a large number of people who haven't made up their minds one way or the other. Election deniers constantly repeating their denials and theories over and over isn't changing minds.

Distrust among Trump's followers is unlikely to improve. As the popular saying goes, a bunch of people decided to f*ck around to get Trump, and now everyone has "found out".
"Complaining" about an election after the fact serves to discredit the electoral process for subsequent elections.

Repeating those complaints after they are proven false serves to further erode that trust.

How can a system be redeemed if the chief complaints against it are fictitious?
 
Then I suppose the US is stuck with continuing distrust. Since there are still some Bush-Gore True Believers, I suppose this will go on for at least another 20+ years. Meanwhile, we'll just have to wait and see whether the pro-democracy people care enough to set aside the short-term crack fix of political advantage and take heads whenever someone does something that might perpetuate distrust. If "they" are unwilling to police themselves, then "they" are essentially the ones who f*cked themselves into this situation and I wish them full enjoyment of their hypocrisy and opportunism.
 
Then I suppose the US is stuck with continuing distrust. Since there are still some Bush-Gore True Believers, I suppose this will go on for at least another 20+ years. Meanwhile, we'll just have to wait and see whether the pro-democracy people care enough to set aside the short-term crack fix of political advantage and take heads whenever someone does something that might perpetuate distrust. If "they" are unwilling to police themselves, then "they" are essentially the ones who f*cked themselves into this situation and I wish them full enjoyment of their hypocrisy and opportunism.
Irrelevant. Neither Bush, nor Gore is continuing to claim that the 2000 election was illegitimate. Gore eventually conceded after pursuing legal remedy. There is no comparison to be made.

I assume those "pro-democracy" people key to rehabilitating trust in the electoral process include those Trump supporters who continue to push false information for political gain.
 
Irrelevant. Neither Bush, nor Gore is continuing to claim that the 2000 election was illegitimate. Gore eventually conceded after pursuing legal remedy. There is no comparison to be made.

I assume those "pro-democracy" people key to rehabilitating trust in the electoral process include those Trump supporters who continue to push false information for political gain.
Irrelevant? So the other people - the followers, the cults of personality - don't matter? You've meant to only be discussing the principals (Trump, Clinton, Biden)? Either people blackguarding democratic institutions and processes - especially indefinitely - is a problem, or it isn't. Choose one.

Trump's supporters can't be expected to take the high road. From their perspective, they're owed a lot of payback by all the other people who pushed false information for political gain. For example, start with the Clinton-approved gambit to tie Trump to Russian interference (ie. the Steele stuff). Clinton, her campaign insiders, the intermediaries at Perkins-Coie and Fusion GPS, Steele, Steele's flunkies, the government people who salted the media with the lies, the media who promulgated the lies, the people who used the lies to advance investigations - Trump's supporters probably have a long list of heads they want to see on spikes before they'll trust "the system" again.

So many people keep emphasizing how dishonest and ignorant Trump and his supporters are. What foolishness would it be to expect them to improve? Obviously, however, their behaviour justifies whatever means are necessary to take them down, as has apparently been the case since roughly mid-2016. It would be unreasonable to expect the decency/decorum/dignity/rule-of-law folks to unilaterally abide by their own rules.
 
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