9 mm pistol as secondary weapon

[1feral1]

Wes, both the BHP and Sig P225 will be replaced by a new pistol in the next few years as part of the first phase of SARP II.

Lets hope those Inglis BHPs are sold off to law abiding gun owners in Canada, even the USA maybe. I have one still, legally owned and registered, stored back in dear ole Saskatchewan, a 3T.

All this enthusiasm will be short lived as selling surplus mil weapons to private citizens is not the PC thing to do. I think there is even a UN charter discouraging such things. Destination sadly is, LTS and/or smelt.

On replacement? Who knows. Australia has pretty much smelted all its L9A1 and Inglis 9mms, replaced them with a MkIII Vigilante BHP, dumped the mag safety, and the pistol will be around for decades to come.  Why fix something if its not broken.  The BHP is still the most common military sidearm in the world. That speaks for itself.

Cheers,

Wes

EDITed for spelling

 

[SeanNewman]

It's not just a secondary.  Us KAF-ites carried one the whole tour...never did get to shoot down an incoming rocket out of the sky to get that VC though, darnit.

I think it was one of those cases where some might ask "Is KAF really that dangerous?  Are those tiny Supreme guys in the mess going to revolt?"  But I think the counter would be if something were to happen like a raving gunman came into the HQ, even if the odds were almost nil, someone somewhere would have their signature block on the order saying we didn't need them anymore and that person would be in deep doo-doo.

Thank God they weren't readied though; there would have been NDs all over the place.

PS - If you do make it to Kandahar one day, make sure to get yourself a super-comfy Hogue grip for it so your LCF goes through the roof.

 

[Jarnhamar]

It's not just a secondary.  Us KAF-ites carried one the whole tour...never did get to shoot down an incoming rocket out of the sky to get that VC though, darnit.

I think it was one of those cases where some might ask "Is KAF really that dangerous?  Are those tiny Supreme guys in the mess going to revolt?"  But I think the counter would be if something were to happen like a raving gunman came into the HQ, even if the odds were almost nil, someone somewhere would have their signature block on the order saying we didn't need them anymore and that person would be in deep doo-doo.

Thank God they weren't readied though; there would have been NDs all over the place.

PS - If you do make it to Kandahar one day, make sure to get yourself a super-comfy Hogue grip for it so your LCF goes through the roof.

We need to stamp out the pistol being treated like a special insignia in the CF.
I've heard people refused pistols because they were 'just a corporal'.
It's still largely looked at as an Officer/Senior NCO device.

Those of us who DID have pistols (depending who you worked for) were told to either keep them locked up in our room until we left the wire and also told we were only allowed to wear certain holsters- some holsters made us look like officers and that wasn't acceptable.

Everyone on KAF wants a pistol because it's convenient and their being lazy. Lugging around an assault rifle when you're hanging out at timmies is hard work.  (Not you specifically there Petamocto, just a theme I found in much of the NSE/NCE).

If people were so afraid of the stereo-typical crazy haji running into a CP blowing everyone away it would be more effective having people with C7s.  Considering the lack of training with pistols (and the act of god required on KAF to get range time) people would end up just shooting themselves  ;D

 

[X-mo-1979]

I had mine wrapped around my TRP incase my 105(or 120),2 c-6's(or 2 MG-3), 8MBGD's,hand greneades,4 c-8s went down.

All the same the few times I leaned over the side and fired it at stuff it was dead on.
Again I did have one shitty Mag,but couldnt get a replacement.

We did some transitional shooting from c-8 to pistol and that was kinda fun.

Flawed:
I was a mcpl over there and all four of our trooper drivers had a pistol as well.It aint a status symbol so much anymore.

Speaking of KAF did anyone see that young lady who though up putting a c-7 rack on her bike on the maple leaf?
guys had her up on the wall just to make themselves angry.
when carrying coffee on a bike becomes dangerous....make a weapons stand for your c-7!
meanwhile there are troopers taking shrapnel,and this chick is on the cover of the maple leaf. Sorry...rant off...

 

[Franko]

Speaking of KAF did anyone see that young lady who though up putting a c-7 rack on her bike on the maple leaf?
guys had her up on the wall just to make themselves angry.
when carrying coffee on a bike becomes dangerous....make a weapons stand for your c-7!
meanwhile there are troopers taking shrapnel,and this chick is on the cover of the maple leaf. Sorry...rant off...

Yep. Tells you right there what the priority for some in KAF is.....and the Maple Leaf reporter who did that POS article instead of getting out and seeing what the troops were REALLY doing.

Regards

 

[X-mo-1979]

What I found the funny part was she didnt even build the thing.It had a quick sentence saying it was built by two MAT techs.So what did she do?Sit at canada house and say "gee I wish I had a rack to carry my gun" and two MAT techs said "ok,I can do that!"


Edit to add:here yah go!
http://www.forces.gc.ca/site/Commun/ml-fe/article-eng.asp?id=4636

And I remember what caused the initial anger was  this article was shared with our guys getting killed.

i'll stop...

Yu wouldnt believe how many people said the phrase "carrying my gun is awkward"!during our 7 months there making fun of this article!

 

[Haggis]

Actually, I've seen decent results with the CF Brownings - the main problems are the magazines, which are less than stellar, and consistently misfeed.  Newer/ better taken care of magazines work pretty well.

The biggest problem with the Browning magazines is the people who load them.  I know that you know this, dapaterson. But for the benefit of those who don't, you cannot load it the same as a rifle magazine (i.e. push the round straight down between the lips then back).  You have to do it differently (push the round down on the front of the magazine follower, then back under the lips) to keep the lips from spreading.

I've owned and fired both Inglis and FN Browning High Powers for over thirty years and have only had one (yes one) non magazine related stoppage - a broken extractor.  It's reliable. Couple that with the state of CF pistol training today (compared to thirty years ago) and the Browning is perfectly suitable for it's intended use as a secondary weapon.  Are there better pistols out there?  You betcha!  If properly cared for and in the hands of a trained user, the Browining High Power is very effective.

 

[Jarnhamar]

I've owned and fired both Inglis and FN Browning High Powers for over thirty years and have only had one (yes one) non magazine related stoppage - a broken extractor.  It's reliable.

Welcome home.  I bet it rained most of the time you ere there, it did for me  ;D

When I went through my mandatory training at the hand gun range here in town I used a browning Hi Power.
I was shocked. The pistol was well cared for, it had a few aftermarket parts and it felt like a whole different gun.  I could not believe how smooth the shooting was or how accurate it was. Not a single stoppage.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

I have the Hi-Power Practical, the larger safety makes a big differance. The gun is likely the most accurate pistol I own. It's sad to think that all those Inglis will likely be destroyed rather than sold.

 

[Thompson_JM]

ARGH!!!

Why did I read that article?!?!?!

Oh Carrying a rifle on a bike is awkward? why not just walk then....... Sheesh...

well at least she wasnt like some of the Clerks from the NSE on my tour who actually used the phrase "The C7 is so big and heavy... and then it would get in the way in the office unless we put in a rifle rack, and thats why I'm glad I have my pistol"

sweet jesus man.....

It would have been more convenient sure, but Laziness is a poor reason to carry something like that.... and really outside of a vehicle search, ECP or something where youre really up close, the Pistol is pretty useless compared to a long rifle or Carbine.


I personally didnt want a pistol.... why settle for 10 rounds on camp when I could carry 30.


I wanted a Damned C8.... I was a Driver for crying out loud... its not like it wouldnt have been usefull!

but, I'll take the C7A2 if it means giving the C8A2's to the infantry guys doing the up close room clearing and the like.... I'd rather they have everything they need, but in a perfect world it would have been nice to have a Carbine.... heck, a C8 or C8A1 woulda been nice, I'm not picky.....

Any idea what the CF might be getting as a replacement pistol for the BHP?

(please be Glock.... Please be Glock... Please be Glock.....)
and yes I do own a glock, so I know what they are like... I love mine and think its one of the best pistols out there... Simple, reliable, and effective.... exactly what a military wants in a weapon.

 

[X-mo-1979]

I shoulda put a warning on that article.It made us very angry daily for 8 months.

 

[COBRA-6]

Way to far out at this point to speculate what the replacement pistol may be, but as this pistol will also be the MP issued sidearm I doubt it will be a single-action, as most police services have moved away from those type.

The Army still has to decide what role the pistol fills and who needs one. This seems intuitive but we lack doctrine in this area. Treasury Board will not support "we want xx thousand pistols" just because, the CF will have to substantiate the need/numbers. I don't believe buying a weapon to act as an accoutrement of rank is a good use of tax dollars, so I hope we don't stick with the "Sgts and up" current method of allocation.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

It would cost approx. $2.7million to buy 9,000 Glock pistols, not a huge sum by government standards. I suspect that weight, cost and reliabilty will be the major factors. There are a lot of decent options to choose from, I like the M&P over the Glock, but think the G19 is a very decent pistol. The Sig 250 would likely be offered but may cost twice as much as a Glock, the Sigpro 2022 would make a nice choice as well, but likely Sig would only offer the 250. Other options that would likely be offered for review would be the SR9, FNP9, XDM and the PX-4. It all depends if they decide that having a manual safety and/or a decocker then it's likely Glock will not bother, although did do up a similar pistol for Norway if I recall.

 

[Snaketnk]

so I hope we don't stick with the "Sgts and up" current method of allocation.

That's not how it's allocated at all. In my, albeit limited experience, when pistols are brought in, it's an all-ranks thing, from the lowliest no-hook to the CO.

 

[medaid]

That's not how it's allocated at all. In my, albeit limited experience, when pistols are brought in, it's an all-ranks thing, from the lowliest no-hook to the CO.

Lucky you.

 

[Fusaki]

That's not how it's allocated at all. In my, albeit limited experience, when pistols are brought in, it's an all-ranks thing, from the lowliest no-hook to the CO.

It's one thing to say that everyone from Pte to LCOL shoots pistols on the range.  It's quite another to say that everyone from Pte to LCOL is each issued a pistol on ex and overseas.  While the former happens often, the latter is pretty far removed from reality.  COBRA-6 is pretty accurate in his statement that pistols are allocated based on rank.

On the issue of pistols being allocated to those inside the wire vs outside the wire...

Maybe you could make a case for one or two guys in an infantry rifle section to carry pistols.  Sometimes it can come in handy during VCPs, or searching confined areas, or things like that.  But why else would your regular infantry guy really need a pistol in a tactical situation?  For transitions in CQB? Please.  The JTF and CSOR can make it work because they have the money, training, and the mission for that sort of thing.  But expecting regular infantry to take on the role of precision gunslinger is dangerous for a number of reasons.  We're the hammer, not the scalpel.

And besides, I can appreciate the fact that some who spend their tours in KAF only want to carry a pistol.  The threat is from the badguy is close to NIL and a pistol is lighter and more convenient. So why should the guy filling a support position inside the wire have to carry around a rifle?  Because the guys outside the wire have to do it?  How retarded is that?  Should infantry guys have to carry around wrenches and crap to make the veh techs feel better?  They have their job.  I have mine. Pistols make their lives a little easier, and I really can't see how it hurts my life at all.

That chick's bike pales in comparison to the crap I'd rig up if I were in her position.

 

[X-mo-1979]

so I hope we don't stick with the "Sgts and up" current method of allocation.

Where is this happening?I know in my little troop  5 of the 8 pistols were on Mcpl and below.They used the excuse that the driver and the C/C needed a pistol to be able to wield it in the confines of the compartment.

Maybe no one suggested a reason in your trades how it would be helpful and the organization your in stuck to the traditional Sgt and above so he could shoot the deserters I guess.

I really didnt need it.The LN seemed to look at it a lot more than the rifle or c-6 though.

Keeping weapons in KAF seems like a viable way to retain the same danger pay as everyone else.However I am talking way outta my lane on that comment.Just my theory.

 

[daftandbarmy]

What I found the funny part was she didnt even build the thing.It had a quick sentence saying it was built by two MAT techs.So what did she do?Sit at canada house and say "gee I wish I had a rack to carry my gun" and two MAT techs said "ok,I can do that!"

Or 'I wish I had a rack'... full stop.

 

[X-mo-1979]

Or 'I wish I had a rack'... full stop.

Well done. ;D

 

[PMedMoe]

It's one thing to say that everyone from Pte to LCOL shoots pistols on the range.  It's quite another to say that everyone from Pte to LCOL is each issued a pistol on ex and overseas.  While the former happens often, the latter is pretty far removed from reality.  COBRA-6 is pretty accurate in his statement that pistols are allocated based on rank.

On the issue of pistols being allocated to those inside the wire vs outside the wire...

Maybe you could make a case for one or two guys in an infantry rifle section to carry pistols.  Sometimes it can come in handy during VCPs, or searching confined areas, or things like that.  But why else would your regular infantry guy really need a pistol in a tactical situation?  For transitions in CQB? Please.  The JTF and CSOR can make it work because they have the money, training, and the mission for that sort of thing.  But expecting regular infantry to take on the role of precision gunslinger is dangerous for a number of reasons.  We're the hammer, not the scalpel.

And besides, I can appreciate the fact that some who spend their tours in KAF only want to carry a pistol.  The threat is from the badguy is close to NIL and a pistol is lighter and more convenient. So why should the guy filling a support position inside the wire have to carry around a rifle?  Because the guys outside the wire have to do it?  How retarded is that?  Should infantry guys have to carry around wrenches and crap to make the veh techs feel better?  They have their job.  I have mine. Pistols make their lives a little easier, and I really can't see how it hurts my life at all.

That chick's bike pales in comparison to the crap I'd rig up if I were in her position.

Totally agree with this statement.

Keeping weapons in KAF seems like a viable way to retain the same danger pay as everyone else.However I am talking way outta my lane on that comment.Just my theory.

Give it up.  As you stated elsewhere, we all die the same, regardless of education location.