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2022 CPC Leadership Discussion: Et tu Redeux

I would like to see more equitable distribution of seats in the House, but without being balanced by an equally distributed Senate amongst the provinces, I fear it would lead to an even bigger tyranny of the majority than the one we currently live in now. Unfortunately, there is no way to make the required changes since there are those whose approval is needed to make the required amendments, who have no interest in making said amendments.
 
But only if it is their national government and it does the things they want done.

We don't do a very good job of teaching our kids how to lose gracefully and prepare for the next match. Because there will always be a next match.
The other problem is how ill informed most folks are on how the game is played. That's on both sides of the political spectrum.

Maybe once folks know that their First Amendment RIghts ( the right of Manitoba to exist within Confederation) or Roe v. Wade decisions ( I would brush up on R v. Morgentaler instead) don't actually mean anything within Canada or Canadian politics; then we can talk about how the system works up here.
 
The flaw wasn't the 1867 design; the flaw was relying on the British approach to a "constitution". Anything not written down can be subjected to argument, litigation, and pressure to change. What the forefathers didn't foresee was just how hard modern activists would push on black letter law, let alone mere customary practices. The US did an admirable job, and look how hard it is to prevent people from reading ideas in that aren't explicitly mentioned anywhere.

We need constitutional law that divides political authority and sets aside individual rights in plain language with no room for subjective interpretation ("reasonable") or exceptions ("notwithstanding"), and we haven't got it.
I can't imagine how unworkable that would be. Under the assumption that no right is absolute, pick a fundamental; expression, search and seizure, you name it, and craft it so it covers every conceivable circumstance, now and forever. If not 'and forever', does the Constitution, the foundational law, change every time some new twist, or technology emerges? Sounds like substantive law to me.
 
I would like to see more equitable distribution of seats in the House, but without being balanced by an equally distributed Senate amongst the provinces, I fear it would lead to an even bigger tyranny of the majority than the one we currently live in now. Unfortunately, there is no way to make the required changes since there are those whose approval is needed to make the required amendments, who have no interest in making said amendments.

According to this website 7 times out of 44 or 16% of our past elections the popular vote lost the election. I think that is unnacceptable. I am not smart enough to come up with a better way but I think we should be trying to find a better system.

I also cannot fathom how someone can still be the PM (and get re-elected) after so many scandles. Just one of those scandles would have ousted the leader of most other democratic countries. If not immediatly he never would have been re-elected.
 




And MacDonald was re-elected four times after he was forced to resign over the Canadian Pacific scandal.

And that's only the civilized part of the world....doesn't bear thinking about the French. :D
 
I can't imagine how unworkable that would be.

For example: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

Not really that hard.

Certainly the "notwithstanding" clause could be ditched.
 
It seems to me that those arguing for regionalism want something akin to wan the American revolutionaries wanted in the late 18th century: strong, almost independent provinces and a weak federal government which has only limited powers.

In many respects that's what we got in 1867 - look at §§91 and 92 of the BNA. §91.29 is a hole big enough to allow almost anything but by then the authors - in London - had seen, in the USA, that "states' rights" led to some insurmountable problems.

It seems to me that Canadians (and Americans, Australians, Brits, Germans and Indians and so on) want a strong national government. It's probably natural given modern transportation and communications - in 1867 a trip from Halifax to Victoria was a once-in-a-lifetime adventure, now it is a matter of a few hours and one change of planes (in YYZ 😱). People feel that they are at least as much Canadian as British Columbian or Nova Scotian and they expect similar standards of public services everywhere in Canada.

Many of the intrusions that the federal government has made into areas of exclusive provincial jurisdiction (§92) were made at the request of t.he provinces, during both world wars. Canadians didn't;t object and there was no pressure, from locals, to shove the feeds out - back where they, Constitutionally, belonged when the emergencies were ended.

In most federal states there are two chambers - one in which the people, on a roughly equal (one person-one vote) get to elect the people who will make §91 work and another in which the political partners in Confederation, the provinces, have their voices.

In my mind equal, elected and effective makes sense in the second chamber but only if we have, say, just five provinces (BC+ Yukon, the Prairies + NU and NWT, Ontario, Québec and Atlantic Canada).

I always look forward to your replies.

We need a way to bring the whole of the country back into the fold. Right now regionalism is tearing us apart socially and institutionally. To me the first step is taking the total power away from the Windsor - Montreal corridor and equalizing it across the country regardless of where there population density lays.

I would argue the issues and troubles across this country are skewed and underrepresented because of that massively concentrated base of voting power.

Like others have said, I am not smart enough to know what the course is, but I can recognize change is needed.

To add perspective, I am a very proud rural Ontarian who lives in NS. Not just an Angry Bluenoser.
 
For example: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

Not really that hard.

Certainly the "notwithstanding" clause could be ditched.
And yet as soon as you take any close look at American jurisprudence, it’s been necessary to ‘abridge’ those freedoms in many instances for extremely valid reasons. Some degree of reasonableness has had to be read in to American law many times over, else laws criminalizing things like threats, or creating sanctions for libel or slander would not exist. A pharmacy company could claim whatever it wants about some fantastical new product. False advertising could be rampant. I could purchase a billboard plastered with an allegation that the mayor is a child molester. Etc, etc ad nauseum. So, in practice, any meaningfully functional system must have reasonable limitations. Ours just approaches it more directly, and has a very well established legal test to adjudicate it when it happens in real life.
 
We need a way to bring the whole of the country back into the fold. Right now regionalism is tearing us apart socially and institutionally. To me the first step is taking the total power away from the Windsor - Montreal corridor and equalizing it across the country regardless of where there population density lays.

I would argue the issues and troubles across this country are skewed and underrepresented because of that massively concentrated base of voting power.

Like others have said, I am not smart enough to know what the course is, but I can recognize change is needed.

To add perspective, I am a very proud rural Ontarian who lives in NS. Not just an Angry Bluenoser.
I agree wholeheartedly with your position. I grew up in Toronto and I still think its ludicrous how much power one city has in driving a country as large and regional as we are. Even Ontario as a province recognizes how easily it is to lose influence the further out you are from the GTA. Policies that would benefit your riding are dwarfed by initiatives made to bolster support from the 416/905.

When I was out west, it was even more shocking watching how "National" issues were always that of the Ontario/Quebec variety and had no bearing on day to day life on the Prairies. And in the same timeframe, something that would cripple Alberta, and thus our resource based economy, didn't see an eye batted in government.

I often have said that in 50 years, possibly more, we'll see a fracture in the federation. I could easily see the Prairies breaking off before Quebec.
 
I agree wholeheartedly with your position. I grew up in Toronto and I still think its ludicrous how much power one city has in driving a country as large and regional as we are. Even Ontario as a province recognizes how easily it is to lose influence the further out you are from the GTA. Policies that would benefit your riding are dwarfed by initiatives made to bolster support from the 416/905.

When I was out west, it was even more shocking watching how "National" issues were always that of the Ontario/Quebec variety and had no bearing on day to day life on the Prairies. And in the same timeframe, something that would cripple Alberta, and thus our resource based economy, didn't see an eye batted in government.

I often have said that in 50 years, possibly more, we'll see a fracture in the federation. I could easily see the Prairies breaking off before Quebec.

I sadly believe that if we don't find an equitable way to govern our nation my child will probably not leave this world as a Canadian.

Unfortunately, like asking politicians to mandate their own pay cut, having Ont and Que relinquish their almost total power is probably out of the realm of reality.
 
Maybe the territory within Ontario shown below the red line on the map, will one day become America's 51st. state. 🤷‍♂️

Either statehood, or a separate province within Canada.
 

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And yet as soon as you take any close look at American jurisprudence, it’s been necessary to ‘abridge’ those freedoms in many instances for extremely valid reasons. Some degree of reasonableness has had to be read in to American law many times over, else laws criminalizing things like threats, or creating sanctions for libel or slander would not exist. A pharmacy company could claim whatever it wants about some fantastical new product. False advertising could be rampant. I could purchase a billboard plastered with an allegation that the mayor is a child molester. Etc, etc ad nauseum. So, in practice, any meaningfully functional system must have reasonable limitations. Ours just approaches it more directly, and has a very well established legal test to adjudicate it when it happens in real life.
Isn't that the reason we hire judges (and juries and legislators)?

We can't write a program or a law that meets all requirements. We rely on subjective assessments. And we rely on parliaments of legislators being able to change their collective minds.
 
Isn't that the reason we hire judges (and juries and legislators)?

We can't write a program or a law that meets all requirements. We rely on subjective assessments. And we rely on parliaments of legislators being able to change their collective minds.
Well, I mean… We did. We elected legislators who drafted and passed the Charter, and we appointed judges who interpret it. So the constituent parts of the system are working as intended.
 
Maybe the territory within Ontario shown below the red line on the map, will one day become America's 51st. state. 🤷‍♂️

Either statehood, or a separate province within Canada.
Problem is, that space is a net draw on resources and not a net contributor. Doubt anyone would want it, it's just high maintenance with little output. But I like where you're going MM...
 
Well, I mean… We did. We elected legislators who drafted and passed the Charter, and we appointed judges who interpret it. So the constituent parts of the system are working as intended.
That is true.

Maybe the relevant question is about the continuing role of parliament in adjusting the Constitution.

1982 was 40 years ago and is disappearing in the rearview mirror. It fades to join VE Day, Vimy Ridge and the Riel Rebellions.

My ongoing concern with the Constitution is that it replaces Parliament with Judges.
 
But I like where you're going MM...

We can dream, QV... :)

I remember in the 1970's Metro Chairman Godfrey arguing before a Royal Commission that the region should have the range and flexibility of a province in its decision making.

If they can't even get that after all these years, pretty hard to imagine that part of Ontario south of the red line on the map of Canada ever getting statehood.
- more than half of all Canadians live South of the red line.

You just wrote off a third of Canada’s GDP.
 
You just wrote off a third of Canada’s GDP.
As well as a huge chunk of power generation, and a key transportation hub, a huge amount of food production, fuel processing etc. R&D hubs, specialist companies etc as well. Also GM, Ford, Toyota etc are all in that region.

Not sure why people think it's a net draw; there aren't 5M people sitting idle with their thumbs up their ass. Not the manufacturing powerhouse of the 70s, but doesn't mean there isn't still a lot of stuff being made and processed. Not cranking out a million widgets but the ones left are high quality and high tech.
 
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