09/10 Budget Impact on PRes - Unit stand-downs, Class B Freeze, and so on!

[Remius]

I'm sure it is hitting units harder than others.  Courses in the area are not likely to stand up until Apr if at all.  Class A is limited to 4 full days until Apr.  Not much but there are tasks here and there that troops are able to pick up.  Some are looking for alternate employment and others have indicated they may seek summer employment elsewhere.  That may just be talk though because I doubt the civy world is in much better shape.

Bad situation all around.

CorporalMajor: Using the mess is a great way to help with morale.  Hopefully your mess committee is looking into it.  Your committee should have some money (hopefully) to be able to carry on.  Just because there isn't money for training doesn't mean your mess life has to end.

 

[Neill McKay]

I intend to show up at the OR when needed, as I am already being paid via another CL B.  Others won't be able to for liability reasons.

I wonder if any thought has been given to allowing P. Res pers to serve unpaid on a voluntary basis?  There's a provision allowing CIC officers to do this (we'd never be able to run our units properly using only the paid time we have).

I don't remember the details, but DND may have decided to self-insure against anything arising from a member being injured or incurring liability while performing voluntary service subject to members signing an understanding along the lines that we would act reasonably and in good faith etc.

 

[dapaterson]

I wonder if any thought has been given to allowing P. Res pers to serve unpaid on a voluntary basis?  There's a provision allowing CIC officers to do this (we'd never be able to run our units properly using only the paid time we have).

I don't remember the details, but DND may have decided to self-insure against anything arising from a member being injured or incurring liability while performing voluntary service subject to members signing an understanding along the lines that we would act reasonably and in good faith etc.

Bad, bad, Bad, BAD (did I say bad?) idea.

Sailor/soldiers/airmen and airwomen have only their chain of command to look out for them - no unions, associations or other groups to petition on their behalf for fair wages and working conditions.  Once their chain of command embraces having their subordinates working for free, we've violated that trust.

Serivce members have a right to be paid for their work.  Full stop.  If funds are not available to pay them for that work, then either (1) rescope the work to fit within the pay available or (2) increase the priority and provide more pay.

Adding "permission" to parade unpaid will deteriorate into pressure to parade unpaid - and sanctions for not doing it.

If the CF wants reservists, they can pay for their time.

Or, if we like this "volunteer" concept so much, we can cut Reg F pay by 20%, tell them it's unpaid leave, and require them to continue to work.

 

[Dissident]

If the CF wants reservists, they can pay for their time.

Although a nice principle, even when money was flowing a lot of leaders did not get paid for all the work (class A) done.

But I am not complaining.

 

[CountDC]

I used to work a lot of volunteer days at the unit to ensure the troops got paid, t4s out and claims done.  The CO appreciated it and told me to sign in every day (which I ignored).  Being the Fin NCO at the unit I knew where we stood dollars wise and figured the unit simply could not afford all the time I was putting in to take care of things. Often in the 4th quarter all the leadership (MCpls and up) were working the Admin nights volunteer to keep the unit running and save the money to squeeze in more training weekends.  The unit didn't have the funds allocated to it to do all the training everyone wanted to do so that was the solution we came up with as a unit.  Everyone signed a paysheet that was held by me until March and then if there was additional funds allocated down to the unit we processed them.

The reality is that often the money is not there to cover all the time needed to run the units properly.  The members have to make a choice of volunteering some time or watching the unit fall apart.  Yes, it would be nice to have the money but it is not always there.  Units that do not find a way to bring the troops together will most likely suffer troop losts. Having mess nights may be a solution in some cases, unit members getting together on their own is also good.  Basically anything that will keep the members connected is good if done properly and would stem some of the losts.

Unfortunately the old saying still holds true - the reserves are not a garunteed employment and should not be relied upon as your source of income.  If you want the garunteed military income join the regs (which of course as posted in several threads is another matter to deal with).

I would like to say maybe the leadership will learn but doubt very much that this time will be any different than the times in the past.  The feast and famine cycle will continue.

 

[Jed]

DAP, I am very surprised by your comments wrt priority spending, namely CMTC and the Army Run some how don't rate the funding.

CMTC is absolutely required if Canada wishes to have a credible, capable CF that can function at the same level as other Nations in this world. Without this training capabilty we might as well go back to pre Great War days and be a colony of Great Britain.

The Army Run probably does as much for morale and CF image as say, the Snowbirds or the soldiers on parade at the Parliment buildings.

Yes we must live within our budget but there are many sacred cows that must not be slaughtered because it is abdolutely the wrong thing to do.

Maybe the Army Run is a nice to have but CMTC?

 

[daftandbarmy]

If the CF wants reservists, they can pay for their time.

Or, if we like this "volunteer" concept so much, we can cut Reg F pay by 20%, tell them it's unpaid leave, and require them to continue to work.

I remember way back in the early 80s when we all signed in on 'voluntary' pay sheets. I think they were blue or pink or something. Let's hope that these particular forces of darkness do not resurge!

 

[Forgotten_Hero]

The members have to make a choice of volunteering some time or watching the unit fall apart.  Yes, it would be nice to have the money but it is not always there.

Unfortunately, I think some units would need to fall appart in order for higher CoC to realise theres a problem. What I mean is, lets say the CoC cuts funding and members do have to volunteer their time to keep the unit running, and they do. Higher CoC, I think, may look at this and say "Hey! See? They didnt need all that funding. They're still functioning with out it. Better invest it in..." another army run, or something of the sort.

The Army Run probably does as much for morale and CF image as say, the Snowbirds or the soldiers on parade at the Parliment buildings.

Really? "Hey, Bloggins. Your Class B is cut, youre also going to have to move out of your house because its only available to Class B. Also, there's no training nights for you to get any money either. But hey, dont worry, we're having an army run next month!"

I dont think the army run does all that much for moral, at least not in the current situation.

Yes we must live within our budget but there are many sacred cows that must not be slaughtered because it is abdolutely the wrong thing to do.

I think we're both worshipping different cows then. The sacred cow I worship is taking care of the troops and ensuring that they have reliable employment. If the CF wants to retain reserve troops, its going to *have* to be able to compete with the civilian sector. Not everyone *can* go regs.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

I don't know about CMTC. The Army Run? Can it, we can't afford it. Trying to put a shiny face of the Army in Ottawa while it's soldiers are unemployed is unethical, if not downright dishonest, disingenuous and disgusting.

I also recall something about a massive sum of cash (millions) being paid out to revamp the RMC Officer's Mess. Anyone know anything about that?

 

[Jed]

OK, I definately am not going to attempt to defend the Army Run as cost effective but I think you are pretty brutal on CMTC for cost effectiveness. The huge cost wasting adventures by the CBGs to Ft Lewis, Ft Yakima where far less effective collective training than any of the Maple Guardian or Maple Defender serials. Until CMTC started up, no one even thought about employing something other than a cold war version of an opposing force (not in Canada anyway). I agree that the earlier serials were pretty big Clusterf**ks but a lot of that had to do with a paradium shift requirement from the PTA.

Good lessons were hoisted aboard even if CMTC and the CF was still in a learning mode and I have no doubt lives were saved because of it. How long do you think it will take for our soldiers to collectively forget these tough lessons if you did not have the CMTC organization?

If the CF is to talk the talk they have to walk the walk, and we can not do that by dumping level 6 and 7 training down to the CBGs or CMBGs. Besides, CMTC was looking at joint training integrating the air force and army anyway.

I guess this is a bit of a sideline to this thread so I won't continue to derail it any further.

 

[CorporalMajor]

I wonder if any thought has been given to allowing P. Res pers to serve unpaid on a voluntary basis?  There's a provision allowing CIC officers to do this (we'd never be able to run our units properly using only the paid time we have).

I don't remember the details, but DND may have decided to self-insure against anything arising from a member being injured or incurring liability while performing voluntary service subject to members signing an understanding along the lines that we would act reasonably and in good faith etc.

As I said it is a matter of liability.  We could parade, but if you don't sign in, you're not covered.  If something bad happens, it's on the unit.  I got severely reprimanded once for forgetting to sign in on a range weekend years ago, and that is why. 

We were told that no one in the unit will be given implied or explicit direction to show up unpaid, for the above reasons and to prevent bad will.  It's only fair. 

That is why it would never work.  We can't sign in, and the cred in the COC would be gone if they expected anything from their soldiers for nothing.

CorporalMajor: Using the mess is a great way to help with morale.  Hopefully your mess committee is looking into it.  Your committee should have some money (hopefully) to be able to carry on.  Just because there isn't money for training doesn't mean your mess life has to end.

I don't know what's happening with our mess because no one really has the time to commit to it.  And it doesn't have all that much money even though it is shared between 6 units.  We just go skiing or hit Honest Lawyer instead, works fine. 

 

[corp_express]

CMTC is absolutely required if Canada wishes to have a credible, capable CF that can function at the same level as other Nations in this world. Without this training capabilty we might as well go back to pre Great War days and be a colony of Great Britain.
[/quote

I guess that's why we send our guys down to California, or Texas...  CMTC is an epic failiure...  we can train command teams in another enironment, as a soldier....  CMTC was useless.

I'm positive that there is another thread that bashes it so I'll stop here...  but my point is were sending people to the states to train...  how much does that cost, when coupled with the costs of maintaing CMTC...  CMTC should be raised to the ground...  ... 

I would sign in on volunteer time to help with that task. I'm sure I'm not alone in this...

let's no forget CMTC employs a crap load of P Res members

 

[Remius]

Nero has it right.  Unpaid volunteer service isn't going to help the overall problem.  Yes, it will alieviate immediate problems and so on, but people will expect the system to keep performing the way it is.  I've had to tell guys to stop working on things.  It's hard because we have motivated and dedicated reservists that despite not even getting pay still want mission success. 

 

[CountDC]

which ever way units and individuals decide to deal with it hopefully at the end of it all the units are able to maintain a strong central core of troops to build on. No matter how you slice it the reserves are too important to the military and Canada to just let it fall apart, even the social clubs in Toronto.  ;D

 

[Remius]

Hmn.  The irony of all this is with these cutbacks and unit stand-downs we are in a situation where the reserves cannot be properlly used in this case for OP Hestian.  Staff checks are being done.  Great.  Most units army units are stood down.  300 class Bs terminated in LFCA, most of 2CMBG is in California, most of LFWA and a chunk of SQFT are at OP Podium.  Doesn't leave much to either deploy or backfill anything back home...

 

[Nfld Sapper]

LFAA is still up and running with little to no cut backs (yet)......

 

[Dissident]

Hmn.  The irony of all this is with these cutbacks and unit stand-downs we are in a situation where the reserves cannot be properlly used in this case for OP Hestian.  Staff checks are being done.  Great.  Most units army units are stood down.  300 class Bs terminated in LFCA, most of 2CMBG is in California, most of LFWA and a chunk of SQFT are at OP Podium.  Doesn't leave much to either deploy or backfill anything back home...

I see it the other way around, me thinks there are plenty of people sitting around waiting to jump in the fray.

It made me so proud last Wednesday that almost everyone in my platoon put their hands up for Haiti if need be.

 

[aesop081]

Hmn.  The irony of all this is with these cutbacks and unit stand-downs we are in a situation where the reserves cannot be properlly used in this case for OP Hestian. 

What is missing in your position is that i am certain that a fair bit of risk management was done before the decision to cut into the reserves was done. What is also missing is operational details WRT OP HESTIAN to which you may not privy to.

 

[Remius]

I see it the other way around, me thinks there are plenty of people sitting around waiting to jump in the fray.

It made me so proud last Wednesday that almost everyone in my platoon put their hands up for Haiti if need be.

Yep.  No arguments about that.  Dedicated, motivated.  Despite being on the receiving end.  Maybe some people will lose their pre-conceived ideas about the reserves.

 

[Remius]

What is missing in your position is that i am certain that a fair bit of risk management was done before the decision to cut into the reserves was done. What is also missing is operational details WRT OP HESTIAN to which you may not privy to.

No, I'm certain they did some risk management.  I doubt it was a lot as everyone was hit by suprise by what was cut.  Cutting class Bs was coming.  Standing down units and cutting training all together was a huge suprise to just about everyone.  If it was coming and they didn't feel the need to warn anyone then my estime in our people at the top would drop.  It doesn't chnage my mind about it being ironic that the Army cuts positions and stands down most of its reserves and one of the most catasrophic natural disasters in our hemisphere happens. 

Maybe they don't need the reserves.  Maybe they could use them.  Either way, one way or the other it has been made less effective now and in the long run..