Worth achieving higher NCM rank before going officer?

[George Wallace]

......  What I mean by that is that you are being interviewed and evaluated by people who have no personal bias.  Trying to commission when you belong to a chain of command changes everything.

At the same time, if your Chain of Command has meritted you and deemed it that you be promoted through the ranks, you should be facing no major difficulties in them also deeming you a good prospect and candidate for officer training.

I watch many on this site, who as OCdts and 2Lts, espouse many things about Officer training, but I would also like to remind everyone, that just because you may be selected for officer training, it does not necessarily mean that you will become an officer.  The competition is stiff.  The Training is hard.  Not everyone will pass, even some of those dealing out advice here.  Remember that.  You have to be the best.  You have to pass the courses.  Then you will be an officer.

 

[PanaEng]

In the end, the Unit, then the PSO, will have to recommend or not recommend, anyway.

However, some HQs are too busy with the many things going on that they tend to forget about the potential officers they have in their NCMs; sometimes a little hint can get the wheels moving.

cheers,
Frank

 

[George Wallace]

Well Frank, if you don't get through the PSO, you are going nowhere, and you need to keep your Chain of Command informed on those appointments. 

 

[ltmaverick25]

At the same time, if your Chain of Command has meritted you and deemed it that you be promoted through the ranks, you should be facing no major difficulties in them also deeming you a good prospect and candidate for officer training.

I watch many on this site, who as OCdts and 2Lts, espouse many things about Officer training, but I would also like to remind everyone, that just because you may be selected for officer training, it does not necessarily mean that you will become an officer.  The competition is stiff.  The Training is hard.  Not everyone will pass, even some of those dealing out advice here.  Remember that.  You have to be the best.  You have to pass the courses.  Then you will be an officer.

That’s a double edged sword George and you know it.  I know several very good soldiers/leaders (and so do you) that are trying to commission but their chain of command either wont do it, or wont support them.

As for the training, obviously it is challenging and not everyone passes, bust most do.  I think were at a point where that goes without saying.  However, if you are determined, committed to succeed, not internally weak and have the smarts to gain a degree then you can pass the training too.  Let’s not make it out to be some mythical training that only "the chosen one" can pass.  The courses and the expectations are tough, but achievable.  You just have to do your part.

 

[PanaEng]

Well Frank, if you don't get through the PSO, you are going nowhere, and you need to keep your Chain of Command informed on those appointments.

Of course... (nobody is talking about setting up an appointment with PSO without CoC at the unit knowing)
What I am saying is that although you don't submit an application for CFR, most times, if a member does not indicate a wish or willingness to become an officer, the CoC may not even entertain the thought - and yes, it usually starts with the member's officer talking with the Adj/OC/DCO.

I think it is easy to pinpoint a good MCpl or Sgt but it is harder to foresee who will make a good officer - a great NCO does not automatically make a good officer.

cheers,

 

[Journeyman]

I think a good NCM, or officer, should consistently demonstrate the ability to use spell-check -- it's free, after all.


.....I know, my standards are pretty demanding  :

 

[Franko]

As far as training goes, the PLQ MODs 1-6 is a long and grueling course.

:rofl:

If you think PLQ is hard, you're going to be in a world of hurt.

It is the first leadership course, but by far the easiest of either worlds...both Officer and NCO.

Regards

 

[PanaEng]

I think a good NCM, or officer, should consistently demonstrate the ability to use spell-check -- it's free, after all.
.....I know, my standards are pretty demanding  :

set to English-Canadian. Yours? US? figures...  :
grammar is a different matter.  ;D

Anyway, are you going to talk fluff or add to the conversation?

 

[Rowshambow]

to add;
As a Sergeant and WO you only go to Lt, it is only MWO and above that become Captains, and some trades (i.e. Infantry) as a WO you will still have to do certain Phases, whereas say Armoured a WO is already phase 4 qualified! In some instances you will also have to go to St Jean to do a 3 week course (if you are not ILQ qualified).
You also will prob not be a Troop Leader, or Platoon Commander. You usually become LO or something other. They try to get the younger guys the time they need as a Troop Leader etc. Yes I know this for a fact, as it's the route I have chosen and I know quite a few other CFR's!
I would suggest going Officer right away as it gives you a greater range of options for your career. As for COC not supporting, etc as LTMAVERICK suggests, well my Regiment has been fully supportive of all members that have CFR'd of gone on to other Officer trades.

 

[Journeyman]

Anyway, are you going to talk fluff or add to the conversation?

Please....check your PMs 

 

[1feral1]

Not long ago my five year plan was to AWOCS (Aussie CFR) myself after a yr or two as a WO2, then go for my comission, but I left the Reg side of things as a Sergeant.

If you think you are up to it, then why not give it a go. I thought leaving the Army as a Captain would have me going out on a high, and being the first person in five generations of soldiers to become an officer.

As a reserve soldier, I still may go for AWOCS after my WOs courses are out of the way. Time will tell, but currently my heart is not into it as much as it was in those pre-Iraq days.

Regards,

OWDU

 

[armyvern]

to add;
As a Sergeant and WO you only go to Lt, it is only MWO and above that become Captains, ...

Oh Gawd. NOT true.

All righty people - if you don't know what the fuck you're talking about - zip it.

Original Poster:

Go see the BPSO. It all depends upon what qualifications you already hold, what trade you are, what Br you'd like to serve in as an officer etc etc.

Go see the BPSO - best advice that you've already been given by Mr Wallace in this thread already.

 

[PanaEng]

Please....check your PMs 

I do agree with your statement - I thought you were talking about my spelling which is usually okay; except when my spell-check switches to English-US. My grammar on the other hand...  ;D

On to this thread, one angle that may be important as well is the relationship a CFR or UTPNCM with the other Jr officers. As the difference in age increases does it limit your networking with your peers at the same rank level?
Is this important at all?
If it is to the individual, then I would also suggest the sooner the better.
As a UTPNCM in RMC, I did not have too many problems with this; I could relate with the various age groups - perhaps is just a personality thing - but I got out too soon to see where I would have ended up career-wise.
(I am back now, in the reserves.)
However, I have found that by being in the ranks beforehand gives a Jr officer a certain amount of credibility - at least among subordinates and peers which may help you at times.
Where would the optimal rank/years be?
I don't know; depends on what you want to accomplish.

cheers,
Frank

 

[George Wallace]

That’s a double edged sword George and you know it.  I know several very good soldiers/leaders (and so do you) that are trying to commission but their chain of command either wont do it, or wont support them.

Yes, I do know several soldiers who are trying to commission, whose Chain of Command do not support them.  As I, nor you, are privy to their reasons, we should not second guess them.  I, for the most part, have faith that the Chain of Command is making the right decisions.

I find it morally and ethically repugnant that some NCOs, who could not make it as Junior Leaders, allow their egos and feelings of self-importance to cloud their minds and make them think that they can bypass their Chain of Command and connive their way into a position that they probably shouldn’t.  I find it dishonest to go through the “backdoor” in the search for personal gain. 

I have seen many NCOs who couldn’t become MCpls, go the officer route.  Most turned out to be weak, impotent officers, many becoming nothing more than Career Captains.  I suppose that is a little better than being Career Cpls, where they were destined to be.  At the same time I have seen the same of ROTP officers, who ended their 25-30 year military careers as a Career Capt.  The system does work this way.

That being said, I have also seen NCOs, who with the blessings of their Chain of Command, successfully pass officer training and become excellent leaders.

In the end it boils down to whether or not the person you face in the mirror every morning is what you want to be.  Your troops decide very quickly who you are.  They are the ones who really decide your fate.

 

[old fart]

Oh Gawd. NOT true.

All righty people - if you don't know what the frig you're talking about - zip it.

Original Poster:

Go see the BPSO. It all depends upon what qualifications you already hold, what trade you are, what Br you'd like to serve in as an officer etc etc.

Go see the BPSO - best advice that you've already been given by Mr Wallace in this thread already.

Rowshambo's comments are correct and are consistent with CFAO 11-9. 

The only exception pending that I have been appraised of, is the potential for a highly appointed CWO to commission as a 2Lt with simultaneous promotion to Major (and that as far as I know will be first, at least in the Regular Force in the last 25 years).

If there are certain Branches commissioning WO and below to Capt that is news to me and in contradiction to the written policies in effect.

 

[George Wallace]

The only exception pending that I have been appraised of, is the potential for a highly appointed CWO to commission as a 2Lt with simultaneous promotion to Major (and that as far as I know will be first, at least in the Regular Force in the last 25 years).

???

Every CWO that I know of, who has CFR'd, has been a Capt on Commissioning.  A 2Lt?  That doesn't sound right.

 

[Franko]

???

Every CWO that I know of, who has CFR'd, has been a Capt on Commissioning.  A 2Lt?  That doesn't sound right.

I know of one in Borden right now. On completion of his term as RSM he was commissioned and wearing Capt bars on the same day.

Perhaps he was a 2Lt on paper for a split second somewhere in there....

Regards

 

[old fart]

???

Every CWO that I know of, who has CFR'd, has been a Capt on Commissioning.  A 2Lt?  That doesn't sound right.

George...every CFR is commissioned in the same manner...and this is reflected on the commissioning scroll.

 

[Monsoon]

Rowshambo's comments are correct and are consistent with CFAO 11-9. 

Not so - his comment suggested that CFRed Sgts and MWOs get appointed to - but don't get promoted past - Lt and Capt respectively. That just ain't so. He may be thinking of the (now defunct) Limited Duty Officer programme, where CWOs were made into Capts without phase training in any particular trade, usually a year or two before retirement.

That being said, some formations won't promote past Capt without a university degree of some kind. If your CFRed MWO didn't have one, then he wouldn't have been eligible for promotion to Maj - but not because of CFAO 11-9.

 

[old fart]

I know of one in Borden right now. On completion of his term as RSM he was commissioned and wearing Capt bars on the same day.

Perhaps he was a 2Lt on paper for a split second somewhere in there....

Regards

All CFRs are commissioned as stated with simultaneous promotion to LT (WO and below) and Capt (MWO and CWO) although the rule book is about to be re-written on that one.

Yours aye...Old fart