Women in U.S. infantry (USMC, Rangers, etc. - merged)

[Remius]

It's not about equal rights in my opinion. We are built differently. From my understanding the Infantry are trained to go in and take out the enemy. If it came down to hand to hand combat to the death, who are you putting the money on? The 6'3 220lbs guy who completed an obstacle course or the 140lb 5'4 woman who completed the same course. That's not being sexist, it's reality.

Just because a girl can fight in ultimate fighting, it doesn't mean they are going to let the girls fight the guys. Why do you think that is? Are they being sexist? That's not to the death. Sure passing an obstacle course is a test of your grit, endurance, upper strength and so forth and if you pass it like everyone else you have the right to be in that role. The only thing is, if I or any guy over 200lbs was ever going to be in trouble of falling off a wall, roof and or cliff and my partner was a girl with barely enough upper body strength, I could die. Hypothetical as it may be, these are my views and my views only.

I can say the same thing about the 140 lb,  GUY.  The reality is that women have been fighting, killing and dying for years.  The US just hasn't caught up.  Look at Russia in WW2, The Israelies, us.  If they meet whatever standard exists and pass the training that determines what makes them a marine officer then they meet that standard.  Same as the 140lb guy.

Here's another hypothetical.  You need to send someone for help.  Do you send the 140lb girl that can run like the wind or the 220lb lummox?  How about the 140lb girl that can put 10 rounds into a dime sized area at 200 meters?  You can come up with all the fight to the death mortal combat scenarios you want but it doesn't mean much in the grand scheme.

Here's a side note.  Google Philp Konowal and look at how big he was and then tell me who you want in your ring of death.

Size matters some of the time, not all of the time.  I know plenty of wiry little guys (and girls) I wouldn't want to tangle with.

 

[Cbbmtt]

And what if your partner is a 5'4", 140 lb guy?  :

I bet you $5 he could lift more than the 5'4" 140lbs lady.

All Infantry soldiers are 6' 3" and 200lbs?  Really?

:

No, I was being hypothetical.

Also known as suppositional, theoretical and speculative.

"My opinion" means I can be wrong and I'm okay with that. I'm not sexist, but if there were only 3 parachutes and me and 3 girls still on the plane going down. I would not be drawing straws, I wouldn't draw at all.

 

[Cbbmtt]

Here's another hypothetical.  You need to send someone for help.  Do you send the 140lb girl that can run like the wind or the 220lb lummox?  How about the 140lb girl that can put 10 rounds into a dime sized area at 200 meters?  You can come up with all the fight to the death mortal combat scenarios you want but it doesn't mean much in the grand scheme.

I totally agree with you!

 

[Journeyman]

"My opinion" means I can be wrong and I'm okay with that.

Yes, there are opinions.....and there are informed opinions.  :not-again:

 

[Jarnhamar]

All Infantry soldiers are 6' 3" and 200lbs?  Really?

:

Some of us are 5'8 and 200lbs  ;D

 

[tomahawk6]

Infantry by being foot mobile are required to carry weights up to a hundred pounds or better.Is the female soldier going to be able to carry a SAW or MG,in addition to her pack ? I doubt it. The same size man can do it though.I welcome female soldiers into the profession of arms,just not the infantry.Fly a chopper,drive a tank,be a mechanic,or artillery person. >

 

[Jarnhamar]

or artillery person. >

Interestingly an artillery soldier I was on course with commented that they'll often put females in CP duties or other less labor intensive positions because they  can't lift the shells for the guns. 

 

[MikeL]

The reality is that women have been fighting, killing and dying for years.  The US just hasn't caught up.  Look at Russia in WW2, The Israelies, us. 

The Israelis aren't 100% equal with employment of women in the IDF.  Infantry for example, the women Infantry soldiers are either employed as instructors or in the mixed sex Caracal Battalion; not in the other Infantry battalions, such as the battalions in the Golani Brigade, etc.

As the unit's fitness instructor explained to me, since Karakal is focused on guarding the southern border, no one in the unit would have to cover long distances on foot, in pursuit of their job. Instead, the key was to be able to move over short distances. Quickly.

http://www.thenewsherald.com/articles/2013/06/19/news/doc51c0daae41dee601841417.txt?viewmode=2

 

[Cbbmtt]

I bet she can lift those shells and carry those packs like any man. Yikes, I all of a sudden feel fat and out of shape.
Annie Thorisdottir - picture

 

[medicineman]

Infantry by being foot mobile are required to carry weights up to a hundred pounds or better.Is the female soldier going to be able to carry a SAW or MG,in addition to her pack ?

Lots of female medics out there - not totally sure about my USN/Army counterparts, but I've been + 100lbs in full gear...and am willing to bet most of them are too. 

:2c:

 

[PanaEng]

I bet she can lift those shells and carry those packs like any man. Yikes, I all of a sudden feel fat and out of shape.
Annie Thorisdottir - picture

was on course with a couple of soldiers like that. One is 5'2" and can put mos of the guys in her unit to shame. The other one is 5'6" or so and same thing - she got her Sapper tab (FLW) a couple of yrs ago. Both of them did came in 1st/2nd in the Pet Ironman (an infantry friend of them came 1st) in the female category - but still 7:33
Then again, I've seen recruiters think it is somewhat funny to put a girl in the Engineers that couldn't even lift a panel pin...

 

[Remius]

was on course with a couple of soldiers like that. One is 5'2" and can put mos of the guys in her unit to shame. The other one is 5'6" or so and same thing - she got her Sapper tab (FLW) a couple of yrs ago. Both of them did came in 1st/2nd in the Pet Ironman (an infantry friend of them came 1st) in the female category - but still 7:33
Then again, I've seen recruiters think it is somewhat funny to put a girl in the Engineers that couldn't even lift a panel pin...

Unfortunately recruiters are not qualified or allowed to assess PT.

 

[acen]

As a 5'6 145lb guy, I wholeheartedly agree. There are quite a few tasks that my vertically challenged people are quite adept at which brings capabilities to an infantry section. Need to climb into a window? Crawl into a small space? A runner? It's not a rule, but chances are my people are ideally suited to the task. We present a smaller target as a side benefit.

Size can be a challenge, but it's not a crutch. It's not an excuse, it's a different capability. Take a look at the DHTC guys and CSOR, you'll find smaller guys who not only met the standard, but bring something different to the table as well.

To add to the Filip Konowal anecdote, check out Simo Hayha. At 5'3, Simo has the highest number of confirmed sniper kills (505) in any major war. He took out at least another 200 with a 9mm submachine gun as well, all within 100 days. I'm sure many 220lb russians would have loved to get into close range with him for a fist fight, but he never gave them the chance.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simo_H%C3%A4yh%C3%A4

I can say the same thing about the 140 lb,  GUY.  The reality is that women have been fighting, killing and dying for years.  The US just hasn't caught up.  Look at Russia in WW2, The Israelies, us.  If they meet whatever standard exists and pass the training that determines what makes them a marine officer then they meet that standard.  Same as the 140lb guy.

Here's another hypothetical.  You need to send someone for help.  Do you send the 140lb girl that can run like the wind or the 220lb lummox?  How about the 140lb girl that can put 10 rounds into a dime sized area at 200 meters?  You can come up with all the fight to the death mortal combat scenarios you want but it doesn't mean much in the grand scheme.

Here's a side note.  Google Philp Konowal and look at how big he was and then tell me who you want in your ring of death.

Size matters some of the time, not all of the time.  I know plenty of wiry little guys (and girls) I wouldn't want to tangle with.

 

[MikeL]

Size can be a challenge, but it's not a crutch. It's not an excuse, it's a different capability. Take a look at the DHTC guys and CSOR, you'll find smaller guys who not only met the standard, but bring something different to the table as well.

There is also a female who successfully completed CSOR AP and SOBQ.

check out Simo Hayha. At 5'3, Simo has the highest number of confirmed sniper kills (505) in any major war. He took out at least another 200 with a 9mm submachine gun as well, all within 100 days.

When it comes to these famous WWII era snipers and the number of "confirmed kills",  some of those numbers and talk of their skill is exaggerated.  So, best not to look at all of them as fact.  Not to say those soldiers weren't skilled, and killed a number of their enemies, but sometimes the truth isn't as good for PR/Propaganda, etc as the "truth".

 

[NSDreamer]

I'm not sure what's being debated in this thread. It seems pretty cut and dry to me, if you meet the standard, you get the job if the position is available, if you continue to meet the standard, you keep the job. Where does gender enter into this equation? Everything else is just social attitude.... ???

 

[Cbbmtt]

I'm not sure what's being debated in this thread. It seems pretty cut and dry to me, if you meet the standard, you get the job if the position is available, if you continue to meet the standard, you keep the job. Where does gender enter into this equation? Everything else is just social attitude.... ???

:goodpost:

 

[The Bread Guy]

I'm not sure what's being debated in this thread. It seems pretty cut and dry to me, if you meet the standard, you get the job if the position is available, if you continue to meet the standard, you keep the job. Where does gender enter into this equation? Everything else is just social attitude.... ???

Good point - there's some discussion here in the Canadian context
http://forums.milnet.ca/forums/threads/27742.0.html

I think I see a merge coming with other discussion in the American context ....

Milnet.ca Staff

 

[The_Falcon]

It's not about equal rights in my opinion. We are built differently. From my understanding the Infantry are trained to go in and take out the enemy. If it came down to hand to hand combat to the death, who are you putting the money on? The 6'3 220lbs guy who completed an obstacle course or the 140lb 5'4 woman who completed the same course. That's not being sexist, it's reality.

Just because a girl can fight in ultimate fighting, it doesn't mean they are going to let the girls fight the guys. Why do you think that is? Are they being sexist? That's not to the death. Sure passing an obstacle course is a test of your grit, endurance, upper strength and so forth and if you pass it like everyone else you have the right to be in that role. The only thing is, if I or any guy over 200lbs was ever going to be in trouble of falling off a wall, roof and or cliff and my partner was a girl with barely enough upper body strength, I could die. Hypothetical as it may be, these are my views and my views only.

The person I want beside me in a fight is the person, who turns into a rabid foaming at the mouth, cornered wounded badger, when the fit hits the shan. 

And as I said before, if a women set her mind to it, she can make up for what ever shortfall the genetics of her sex have given her.  There are plenty of guys in the infantry who while they can throw on a ruck and grind out a 13km march, or when they take it off they can run like the wind, ask them to climb a rope, or carry 2 full water jerry's a few hundred metres and they implode.  This video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z-LvjwLE5Mk is of Camile, I have seen her in person, she is uber tiny, but based on what I see on a daily basis here in the gym in KAIA, she and other gals like here are stronger than 90% of this base.  I can't count how many times I have seen you 6' 200lb male, (some belong to the "elite" units of their home countries), struggle with less than half the weight Camille squats in that vid.

The only really big difference between woman and men, is men have really inflated egos, about how genetically superior they are, but a very large portion of the male popultation doesn't actually utilize that  genetic advantage, making them all talk and no substance.

 

[Strike]

Just because a girl can fight in ultimate fighting, it doesn't mean they are going to let the girls fight the guys...

Actually, I've sparred against men regularly in both rigid martial arts and MMA (training of course).  In fact, I've beaten the men many times.  You know why that was?  I was better trained.  Didn't matter that the guy had 12 inches height/reach on me or 50+ lbs.

Point is, size doesn't matter as much as you would think.  It's how well the person is trained that does.

 

[Cbbmtt]

Actually, I've sparred against men regularly in both rigid martial arts and MMA (training of course).  In fact, I've beaten the men many times.  You know why that was?  I was better trained.  Didn't matter that the guy had 12 inches height/reach on me or 50+ lbs.

Point is, size doesn't matter as much as you would think.  It's how well the person is trained that does.

My ex had a wicked pinch that used to make me bleed almost every time.

I never said that women didn't belong in the infantry role. If you can do the requirements set forth, power to you. Bragging that girls can beat up guys, that's great! Also, pretty hot.

However, no matter how many scenarios or hypothetical situations we express on this forum, I'm still a man and women make me weak. If you haven't noticed, a lot of men go weak around the knees, they get sensitive and they stop using their brains around woman. I respect all women and how they have fought over the years to get to where they are today. I see us as equals, however there are emotions and basic instincts you can't change over the course of a century.

If my spouse wanted to go for infantry and qualified, I would let her go because it was her choice. I wouldn't like the fact she went, but I will tell you one thing and it's not from experience. I have a feeling that a lot of those male soldiers fighting along side her would go out of their way to make sure she was safe because they all have moms too and a soft spot for women in general. Does this make the men not as sharp or as strong or as clear minded as they should be? I don't know, I'm just an applicant speculating on a forum with my opinions.

I am a man and I was brought up with the morals to look after the welfare of women and children before my own. However, if I need to put my manly pride on hold to be protected by some kick a$$ women in the Infantry, I have the utter most respect for all of you.