Will the C17s Make it to the Ramp?
- Thread starter C1Dirty
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Looks like the first plane is to arrive in august....
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2007/02/02/military-planes.html
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2007/02/02/military-planes.html
Looks like a good start to the government rebuilding the forces...
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Haletown said:
Thinking about Gatineau?
Matthew. ;D
Wow.
Everybody is throwing up their arms in a hissy fit before the speakers have even walked off the stage. Disgraceful. (Mostly directed at you, Quebec).
I for one am incredibly happy about the announcement. The Canadian Forces, with its own strategic airlift platforms. A couple of years ago, who would have guessed this would have even gotten off the drawing board? Fantastic news - great to see a political party actually do what it says its gonna do!
For all of those who are whining about the industrial benefits...could you give it a day or so? The speaker has barely walked off the stage, and already your getting your panties in a not. (Not meant to be offensive to any female members, or females at all in that sense. Just an expression.) There will be indistrial benefits to all regions of Canada. Each region of Canada has much to offer in terms of support and services, and those skills will be put to good use. Whining for your fair share of the industrial benefits is fruitless; Boeing has a complex in Winnipeg, so obviously Winnipeg and Manitoba in general are going to get their fair share. Atlantic Canada has many trades to offer, and Quebec has a large stake in the country's aerospace industry. Any which way the pie flies, there will be benefits. Wait and see what announcements are made in context to that, before making a big deal out of potentially nothing.
And the Liberals, saying we don't need planes and should continue to rely on other countries....ugh....enough said. There is reason they are no longer in power, and short-changing the country is a big one. Don't even need to go there.
Everybody is throwing up their arms in a hissy fit before the speakers have even walked off the stage. Disgraceful. (Mostly directed at you, Quebec).
I for one am incredibly happy about the announcement. The Canadian Forces, with its own strategic airlift platforms. A couple of years ago, who would have guessed this would have even gotten off the drawing board? Fantastic news - great to see a political party actually do what it says its gonna do!
For all of those who are whining about the industrial benefits...could you give it a day or so? The speaker has barely walked off the stage, and already your getting your panties in a not. (Not meant to be offensive to any female members, or females at all in that sense. Just an expression.) There will be indistrial benefits to all regions of Canada. Each region of Canada has much to offer in terms of support and services, and those skills will be put to good use. Whining for your fair share of the industrial benefits is fruitless; Boeing has a complex in Winnipeg, so obviously Winnipeg and Manitoba in general are going to get their fair share. Atlantic Canada has many trades to offer, and Quebec has a large stake in the country's aerospace industry. Any which way the pie flies, there will be benefits. Wait and see what announcements are made in context to that, before making a big deal out of potentially nothing.
And the Liberals, saying we don't need planes and should continue to rely on other countries....ugh....enough said. There is reason they are no longer in power, and short-changing the country is a big one. Don't even need to go there.
Retired AF Guy
Army.ca Veteran
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Haletown said:
Thanks for the info.
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Nothing like a stated of policy of "Oh, we'll just borrow other peoples' stuff when we need it."
M. :
M. :
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A bit more from Canadian Press, shared with the usual disclaimer....
Government buying four huge transport planes; won't discuss regional spinoffs
Canadian Press, 2 Feb 07
OTTAWA (CP) - The $3.4-billion purchase of four huge Boeing C-17 military transport planes will scatter spinoff benefits across the country, but the Conservative government wouldn't say Friday which regions of Canada will get the biggest slice.
Defence Minister Gordon O'Connor, Public Works Minister Michel Fortier and Industry Minister Maxime Bernier, said the regional industrial benefits from the contract will bolster aerospace firms across the country.
Bernier said Boeing will announce specific contracts at a later date, which will help clarify where some $577 million in spinoffs will land.
Earlier reports suggest Quebec companies are expected to see about 40 per cent of the money, but the government would not touch the subject Friday.
The first of the aircraft is expected to be delivered in the "August-September" period, said O'Connor, with a second before the end of this year and two more in 2008.
"Gone are the days when we had to rely solely on our allies or commercial companies for airlift to respond to crisis situations," said O'Connor.
"Gone are the days when the Canadian Forces had to wait for years to get equipment they need for their jobs today."
The first aircraft to be delivered is currently being built as part of a U.S. Air Force contract, but the American military has agreed to permit Canada to "step into the assembly line," said O'Connor, in order to get the plane more quickly.
The purchase of the strategic airlifters fulfils a promise the Conservatives made in the last election campaign.
Prime Minister Stephen Harper promised the planes in December 2005, saying they would give the Canadian Forces the ability to haul heavy loads, including the disaster assistance relief team, to distant locations without having to lease aircraft or beg a ride with allies.
"To be truly sovereign, we must be able to deploy our forces and equipment where they are needed, when they are needed," Harper said at the time.
"To put it bluntly, hitchhikers may get to their destination, but they don't get to pick the route or the timing."
Opposition politicians complained that the purchase was made without the usual tendering process, but the government countered by saying the plane is unique and no other aircraft can duplicate it.
The C-17, which first flew in 1991, is widely used by the United States air force. Britain's Royal Air Force has four and plans to buy another and Australia took delivery of the first of four planes last December.
The planes are big - 53 metres long with a 52-metre wingspan - and can haul as much as 76 tonnes. They can be refueled in flight, giving them virtually unlimited range.
Despite their size, they can operate from runways as short as 1,100 metres.
The Conservatives are also in the process of seeking replacements for the aging fleet of C-130 Hercules transport planes, which have been the workhorse of the air force for decades, but which are rapidly coming to the end of the service lives.
Government buying four huge transport planes; won't discuss regional spinoffs
Canadian Press, 2 Feb 07
OTTAWA (CP) - The $3.4-billion purchase of four huge Boeing C-17 military transport planes will scatter spinoff benefits across the country, but the Conservative government wouldn't say Friday which regions of Canada will get the biggest slice.
Defence Minister Gordon O'Connor, Public Works Minister Michel Fortier and Industry Minister Maxime Bernier, said the regional industrial benefits from the contract will bolster aerospace firms across the country.
Bernier said Boeing will announce specific contracts at a later date, which will help clarify where some $577 million in spinoffs will land.
Earlier reports suggest Quebec companies are expected to see about 40 per cent of the money, but the government would not touch the subject Friday.
The first of the aircraft is expected to be delivered in the "August-September" period, said O'Connor, with a second before the end of this year and two more in 2008.
"Gone are the days when we had to rely solely on our allies or commercial companies for airlift to respond to crisis situations," said O'Connor.
"Gone are the days when the Canadian Forces had to wait for years to get equipment they need for their jobs today."
The first aircraft to be delivered is currently being built as part of a U.S. Air Force contract, but the American military has agreed to permit Canada to "step into the assembly line," said O'Connor, in order to get the plane more quickly.
The purchase of the strategic airlifters fulfils a promise the Conservatives made in the last election campaign.
Prime Minister Stephen Harper promised the planes in December 2005, saying they would give the Canadian Forces the ability to haul heavy loads, including the disaster assistance relief team, to distant locations without having to lease aircraft or beg a ride with allies.
"To be truly sovereign, we must be able to deploy our forces and equipment where they are needed, when they are needed," Harper said at the time.
"To put it bluntly, hitchhikers may get to their destination, but they don't get to pick the route or the timing."
Opposition politicians complained that the purchase was made without the usual tendering process, but the government countered by saying the plane is unique and no other aircraft can duplicate it.
The C-17, which first flew in 1991, is widely used by the United States air force. Britain's Royal Air Force has four and plans to buy another and Australia took delivery of the first of four planes last December.
The planes are big - 53 metres long with a 52-metre wingspan - and can haul as much as 76 tonnes. They can be refueled in flight, giving them virtually unlimited range.
Despite their size, they can operate from runways as short as 1,100 metres.
The Conservatives are also in the process of seeking replacements for the aging fleet of C-130 Hercules transport planes, which have been the workhorse of the air force for decades, but which are rapidly coming to the end of the service lives.
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Haletown said:
Sweet!! ;D
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That's what I was hoping, Globesmasher. It was a sad day when those colours got put away (http://babblingbrooks.blogspot.com/2005/07/nothing-to-chance.html).
Hi! thanks for the information in regard to the "boxtop" runs in Alert - which is exactly what i was interested in - as I'd been there in 1976 building the second barrack block and also worked on airfield repair for one or two weeks. I assume the best approach for "boxtop" would be C177 to Greenland, then C130j shuttle runs to Alert or Eureka, except for the odd special flights for oversize items. I'm still surprised at what was in Alert and what could be crammed into a Herc (some disassembly no doubt was required). Maybe when (if?) Afghanistan winds down, thanks to having this immense asset, the Armed Forces will begin to take the lead in Northern development again.
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C-17's are a done deal. Check out Boeing web page and they claim "a signed dealwith Canada for 4 C-17's" First delivery fall 2007. They are a world player in the military game and I doubt if they left the government (no matter who is in charge of the Parliament on any given day) any way to wiggle out of this contract without it costing more than it's worth. Our reputation with defence companies isn't that good, some actually won't bid on the small contracts Canada puts out due to the amount of effort on their part to comply with so many bureaucratic hoops to jump through. Ever wonder why there were no other bidders for the LUVW SMO (G'wagen) contract. They have a tendency to make their contracts pretty air tight.
I'm working from very old memories here, circa early 70's when i was doing DEW Line work ( I surveyed and did engineering assessments on every DEW runway, hardstand, apron & fuel storage area) but I seem to recall that Arctic re-supply used sealift to Thule and then airlift into everywhere else. The airstrips can likely handle the 17's - its not the total weight of the plane, its the load distribution across the wheels
So I could see a single C17 doing what the usual four Boxtop Hercs would do - they carry almost four times as much but are faster. So theoretically instead of 160-170 Herc Boxtop Chalks there would about 45-50 C17 chalks, with corresponding fewer crew hrs, engine maintenance time etc.
Don't know if there is bulk fuel system for the 17, so one Herc might just be need to do the wet lift
In all the MSM gnashing of teeth about the C17 being not needed, the dumb-dumbs that call themselves journalists conveniently overlook the fact that 4 x $250m C 17's replaces at least 16, maybe 20 x $90m Hercs/Jercs
Cancel the contract Mr. Coderre but then buy the additional Hercs to replace the lost lift.
So I could see a single C17 doing what the usual four Boxtop Hercs would do - they carry almost four times as much but are faster. So theoretically instead of 160-170 Herc Boxtop Chalks there would about 45-50 C17 chalks, with corresponding fewer crew hrs, engine maintenance time etc.
Don't know if there is bulk fuel system for the 17, so one Herc might just be need to do the wet lift
In all the MSM gnashing of teeth about the C17 being not needed, the dumb-dumbs that call themselves journalists conveniently overlook the fact that 4 x $250m C 17's replaces at least 16, maybe 20 x $90m Hercs/Jercs
Cancel the contract Mr. Coderre but then buy the additional Hercs to replace the lost lift.
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So far every word out of Mr.Coderre 's mouth is pure political garbage. No wonder the military was starved under the Liberals.
Well the other question is - how would they be able to get out of the contract?
Reasonable expectations state that it is a) too late for a Spring election now and b) Summer elections are supremely rare and c) a Fall election is usually September/November.
Also, MSM media and many analysts have reported that most parties do not want an election now, as noone seems to be ready for a majority and the NDP will probably get a lot of attention from the Cons regarding green enticements.
All this to say, the earliest I could see (course you never know) a new government would be in September, probably November. By that time, according to this delivery schedule, we'd already have two planes. So at most, they could try and cancel the last two... which would be dumb but I suppose possible even if it costs us more (EH101s did too, no?) than the actual aircraft. And then what, try and sell the other two?
Reasonable expectations state that it is a) too late for a Spring election now and b) Summer elections are supremely rare and c) a Fall election is usually September/November.
Also, MSM media and many analysts have reported that most parties do not want an election now, as noone seems to be ready for a majority and the NDP will probably get a lot of attention from the Cons regarding green enticements.
All this to say, the earliest I could see (course you never know) a new government would be in September, probably November. By that time, according to this delivery schedule, we'd already have two planes. So at most, they could try and cancel the last two... which would be dumb but I suppose possible even if it costs us more (EH101s did too, no?) than the actual aircraft. And then what, try and sell the other two?
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geo said:
This is relevant, the majority of Quebecois have an anti-military outlook:
http://206.75.155.198/pwgsc/dtsearch.asp?Lang=E&cmd=getdoc&maxSize=200000&DocId=555418&Index=d%3a%5cdtsearch%5cUserData%5cfullfeed&HitCount=4&hits=3a5+3a7+3a8+3a9+&hc=16&req=%28+Publication+contains%28+Sun+OR+star%2A+OR+Calgary+OR+bnw+OR+cbc+OR+Charlottetown+OR+CTV+OR+Journal+OR+%2Apost%2A+OR+Daily+OR+Globe+OR+Spectator+OR+ISDN+OR+Standard+OR+Record+OR+Herald+OR+press+OR+Maclean%2A+OR+Times%2A+or+Gazette+OR+citizen+OR+Telegram+OR+standard+OR+Vancouver+OR+Winnipeg+OR+Victoria+OR+cpw+OR+CTV+OR+bnw+OR+StarPhoenix+%29%29+AND+%28+author+contains%28+J%2EL%2E+GRANATSTEIN++%29%29+AND+xfilter%28date+%22M01%2FD26%2FY2007%7E%7EM02%2FD02%2FY2007%22%29
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Uhhh.... relevant to what?
Majority?.... and you believe the press?.... written by Mr Granatstein for the National Post? Mr Boisclair has his party up in arms (over his inept delivery of party platform).
As many good soldiers come out of Quebec as they come out of the other provinces...
The Quebec population's stand on the CF?..... People of all political stripe that I know give me no grief on what the CF is doing.
Mr Granatstein... I don't agree with ya! (again)
Majority?.... and you believe the press?.... written by Mr Granatstein for the National Post? Mr Boisclair has his party up in arms (over his inept delivery of party platform).
As many good soldiers come out of Quebec as they come out of the other provinces...
The Quebec population's stand on the CF?..... People of all political stripe that I know give me no grief on what the CF is doing.
Mr Granatstein... I don't agree with ya! (again)
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COBRA-6 said:
Cobra:
No, we're not going to bother - for a couple of reasons.
1 - We will be getting the ER (Extended Range) aircraft. These aircraft (post block 12 aircraft mod) have the centre wing boxes modified into 4 internal centre wing fuel tanks which ups the total fuel capacity from 185,000 lbs to 245,000 lbs. Burning fuel at just under 20,000 lbs/hr we would have just over 10 hours of fuel burn on-board the new aircraft .... and currently we do not have crew duty days long enough to accommodate anything longer than that. 10 hours of flying (God forbid) would translate into a 15 or 16 hour crew duty day. The USAF fly with "augmented crews" meaning that they can increase the crew duty days to 24 and 26 hours. We will not be doing that - it is just too dangerous. The CF will remain with the basic crew (Pilot, copilot and loadmaster) and remain with the basic crew duty day as defined in the 1 Cdn Air Div Orders (14, 16 or 18 hours) .... so right now we don't have enough crew day to require air refuelling.
2 - No we can't modify the aircraft for probe and drogue. In fact, we have opted into the GSP - The Global Support Program - and in doing so we will NOT be making any modifications to the aircraft whatsoever. In fact, the RAAF have also done the same thing so that we can all belong to the "Virtual fleet". The RAF have not been allowed to make any modifications because they were confined/restricted by lease. We have "chosen/opted" not to make any mods at all.
In doing this we can participate in the JUG (Joint Users Group), and the CORT/SORT (Crew Operational Review Team) and also the GSP. This is a good thing for a couple of reasons. So, if I happen to be flying into Brize Norton and I toast an engine ... when I land I simply let Trenton know what the problem is ... and then I phone the UK Boeing reps and tell them to come and replace/repair the engine. I simply walk away from the aircraft and leave it to Boeing. While it has limited uses, the GSP will have some great benefits with it. However, in order to have these guys work on our aircraft they have to be configured identically to the USAF - RAF - RAAF. Everyone will be the same in the virtual fleet.
So, essentially every C-17 will be identical except for the paint scheme and the flag on the tail.
Furthermore, participation in the JUG and CORT will allow the aircraft to remain within the continual cyclic block upgrade program. We'll be getting block 17 aircraft, then when Boeing comes out with the block 18 and 19 software and hardware upgrades, we will also get our aircraft done in sequence as we cycle them back through Long Beach (Boeing) for major periodic inspections and overhauls. In this way we get to participate in the continual upgrade program.
Also, for the AR .... as you know, we don't have any KC-135s or KC-10s with the boom ..... so it would be a nightmare trying to coordinate periodic re-currency training for our C-17 crews to refuel off USAF tankers. As such we have opted out of the AR capability of the aircraft since it isn't really required for us .... trust me, you don't want to be a passenger in the back when the pilot is at the 26th hour of a crew duty day ..... and trying to approach and land at a major airport. It's not pretty ... :blotto:
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