Will the C17s Make it to the Ramp?

[Globesmasher]

It was a sad day when those colours got put away (http://babblingbrooks.blogspot.com/2005/07/nothing-to-chance.html).

Yes, that was a sad day.  I flew Hercs for 5 great years with 429 Sqn ('96 - '01) and got to see the world ..... nothing would bring a bigger smile to my face than to see 429 Sqn stood up again as the C-17 squadron.

 

[Globesmasher]

...... there are already a number of CAF pilots that are qualified to fly the C-17 which will be another advantage as well.As part of the exchange program have ground crew personnel been trained to maintain the C-17 ?

Yeah, there are currently 2 pilots who were part of the original C-17 exchange program from 2001 - 2004.  We're both now be worked like dogs trying to get this program up and running.  During the exchange there were no actual maintenance folks trained, but there was one MX officer.

We had one loadmaster, who was recently released due to a bad back injury.  It was really too bad to see him go.  We also had a logistics Capt who worked in the McChord Aerial Port, but he has since moved on to other things.  The Maintenance Major has also returned to Canada (when the FSA program was cancelled by the Liberals in 2004) but is now working with the CP-140s out on the East coast.  So, all we have left over from the exchange program is the 2 pilots.

We have already begun pushing our initial cadre through training with Boeing and the USAF.  We have our first 6 pilots and our first 6 LMs who have completed initial qualification training in Altus, Oklahoma.  They will now move onto another USAF base to begin 4 months of "imbedded" training with the USAF.  The 2 former exchange pilots (me and the other guy) are currently undergoing our "re-qual" training in Oklahoma and we'll join our initial cadre folks in April.

The initial cadre will stay in the USA until end of July when we'll bring them home and have them ready for the first delivery in August 07.

The second phase of the initial cadre begins training in March - 8 more pilots and 8 more LMs.  After their training in Altus, they will be imbedded for 4 months with the USAF and we'll bring them home in time for the second delivery in October 07.

The maintainers (the technicians) have already begun their initial qualification training in Charleston (about 50 of them) and they too will be "imbedded" with the USAF until July 07.

And, speaking of exchanges, we will also have a USAF pilot and LM on exchange with us up in Trenton, and a couple more from the USAF who will be with us temporarily for about 6 months or so.

From 2008 and onwards we simply plan on cycling our folks through the normal training program in Altus and then bringing them straight home to continue their training back in Canada.

 

[IN HOC SIGNO]

Love your posts. Was that you on the TV the other night? or was that the other guy?  ;D

 

[tomahawk6]

Very interesting thanks. By the way I ran across this nice C-17 pic.

 

[fireman1867]

Hi there first post ever, someone asked for info on infrastructure changes at Trenton, I have heard some interesting rumours lat night at a mess dinner,

1.  The apron cannot support a fuly fueled C-17 for more than 24 hours, it wil cuase cracking after this period

2. It is inpractical to fuel this aircraft by bowser(not sure on the hard numbers but someone can do the math) meaning apron hydrant fueling(not sure of the technical term) is a must, so combined with point 1 we can assume a magor ramp upgrade will be in the works

3. The hight of the wing means that the crash trucks need to be upgraded, but they now do not fit into their buidling, so that needs to change.

4. The runway which is now at 10000 ft needs at least an extra 2000 ft for warm weather take off, (she can land short but needs at least 8000 in cooler temps)

Interesting stuff to say the least, I am sure the hangar space is an issue but I have no info on that.

I would be interested in info about the squadron assignment, interesting point about 437, I am sure someone has more info about this but I dont think its chance that the 707 was cc-137 husky and assigned to 437 huskies? I dont think we have an inactive 477 squadron to match designation of cc-177? Just some toughts.

cheers,


Mark

 

[Good2Golf]

...So, essentially every C-17 will be identical except for the paint scheme and the flag on the tail...

That is the best news I've heard in a very long time.  Folks wouldn't believe the elimination of headaches we'll achieve with a standard configuration.  Good job on the requirements staff for that!

G2G

 

[peaches]

Will we be training all Canadian C17 crew (air & ground) at Altus????


Peaches

 

[observor 69]

Uhhh.... relevant to what?
Majority?.... and you believe the press?.... written by Mr Granatstein for the National Post? Mr Boisclair has his party up in arms (over his inept delivery of party platform).

The article is an extract from his book not an article written for the National Post.

As many good soldiers come out of Quebec as they come out of the other provinces...

Absolutely and I never inferred otherwise. But it is a fact that there is a strong anti-military sentiment in Quebec.

The Quebec population's stand on the CF?..... People of all political stripe that I know give me no grief on what the CF is doing.

Mr Granatstein... I don't agree with ya! (again)

You might not agree with him Geo but he is one of the top Canadian military historians, and deservedly so.

 

[tomahawk6]

So will there be a requirement for a C-17 simulator or will pilots go to Altus for quarterly simulator training ?

http://public.dover.amc.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123031775

http://www.dfrc.nasa.gov/Gallery/Photo/Simulator/Medium/EC04-0288-4.jpg

http://starbulletin.com/2005/09/25/news/index13.html

 

[observor 69]

Globesmasher

Furthermore, participation in the JUG and CORT will allow the aircraft to remain within the continual cyclic block upgrade program.  We'll be getting block 17 aircraft, then when Boeing comes out with the block 18 and 19 software and hardware upgrades, we will also get our aircraft done in sequence as we cycle them back through Long Beach (Boeing) for major periodic inspections and overhauls.  In this way we get to participate in the continual upgrade program.

This overall way of operating and maintaining  what you meant by the old way versus the new way?  and thank God for that.

 

[28402 engineers]

wait a second....we've bought something incredibly useful, which comes with a comprehensive upgrade package, and we bought even when Quebec said "NON!"? God is weeping tears of joy my friends. it's a beautiful thing.

 

[peaches]

http://www.boeing.com/news/releases/2007/q1/070202d_nr.html

Here's a link to Boeing with "Canadian" C17 pic......

 

[Meridian]

wait a second....we've bought something incredibly useful, which comes with a comprehensive upgrade package, and we bought even when Quebec said "NON!"? God is weeping tears of joy my friends. it's a beautiful thing.

Shush, the aircraft isn't on the ramp yet. You'll jinx it.

 

[Globesmasher]

Was that you on the TV the other night? or was that the other guy?  ;D

;D  No that was the other guy.

Most people who know me, know that I hate the press and the media. I am sick and tired of being quoted out of context.  Each time they call me for an interview I always say that I am unavailable and then I give them Johny's contact info ....  ;D  I lose count on the number of times I have stabbed him in the back with the media interviews ... I'm an asshole   ;D

 

[observor 69]

Altus Air Force Base photos and more. Enjoy  .. Yipppeeeee we're getting new planes  ;D  ;D


http://www.altus.af.mil/photos/index.asp?page=2

 

[28402 engineers]

Shush, the aircraft isn't on the ramp yet. You'll jinx it.

Oh spit, you're right !  sorry!

 

[peaches]

It's kind of like Xmas!!!

We should start a campaign to name each one.....  "Harpers Hauler", "Rickie's Rocket"......

 

[Globesmasher]

1.  The apron cannot support a fuly fueled C-17 for more than 24 hours, it wil cuase cracking after this period

This may very well be true.  The ramp/apron will have to be upgraded.  Typically the aircraft is fuelled with about 130,000 lbs or more of fuel on any given day.  With the basic empty weight of the aircraft weighing in at 283,000 lbs .... add the fuel and suddenly you have just over 200 tonnes parked in one spot.  Now start adding 70 odd tonnes of cargo to that as well.  We'll be OK for short periods of time, but not long ones.  The ramp at YTR will have to go through major overhauls for many other reasons as well.

2. It is inpractical to fuel this aircraft by bowser(not sure on the hard numbers but someone can do the math) meaning apron hydrant fueling(not sure of the technical term) is a must, so combined with point 1 we can assume a magor ramp upgrade will be in the works

Correct - typical fuel uploads will be in the order of 180,000 lbs at a time just to launch out for Brize Norton (as an example).  So fuelling from a 20,000lb bowser is not the way to go.  The Site Activation Visit (Nov 06) highlighted the fuelling shortfall as a possible show stopper.  The issue is being worked by Wing Ops and the infrastructure team.  You are right - it is called hydrant refuelling .... same as what is done at major international airports.  The individual parking spots have in-ground refuelling points associated with them.  A pumper truck parks by the spot, connects to the aircraft and to the hydrant and simply acts as a pump to move the fuel into the aircraft.  This too will be done, and as ramp upgrades begin in Spring 07, hydrant refuelling will be part of the upgrade as concrete gets poured.

3. The height of the wing means that the crash trucks need to be upgraded, but they now do not fit into their buidling, so that needs to change.

Yup - not just the height of the wings, but the mere size and quantity of fuel require a higher category of CFR (Crash Fire Response).  Bigger fire trucks are required, but the big ones won't fit into the old firehall - so a new firehall is also required.  This issue was highlighted as a definite showstopper.

4. The runway which is now at 10000 ft needs at least an extra 2000 ft for warm weather take off, (she can land short but needs at least 8000 in cooler temps)

No, the runway length if just fine.  In winter we can perform 585,000lb AUW takeoffs without issue, and the summer will see us restricted to about 560,000 lbs.  Length is just fine.

Interesting stuff to say the least, I am sure the hangar space is an issue but I have no info on that.

Yes, hangars for maintenance will be an issue - yet to be resolved.

 

[Globesmasher]

Will we be training all Canadian C17 crew (air & ground) at Altus????

Yes - well at various locations around the USA.  The aircrew training will remain at the C-17 school house in Altus, Oklahoma.  Since we only have 4 aircraft it is not worth the infrastructure costs to set up our own school house and staff it.  Simply not possible.  So we'll just send out aircrew down to Altus for the initial courses and also for the airdrop courses when we finally get around to that as well.

 

[Globesmasher]

So will there be a requirement for a C-17 simulator or will pilots go to Altus for quarterly simulator training ?

Quarterly phase sim training will be conducted at various locations throughout the USA, Dover, McGuire, Charleston, McChord etc ... Probably not Altus since their sims are fully booked doing syllabus courses.

We cannot buy our own sim right now since the WST, the full motion Weapon Systems Trainer runs at about > $24 million +.  We then need to build a building to put it in and then pay Boeing to staff it.  The WST then needs to be maintained just like a "5th tail" since it too has to go through all the block upgrade programs as well.

We did a business case analysis for buying our own sim and right now it is just not feasible - but hopefully sometime in the future.  Me, I like the idea of going down to Charleston for 2 days every 3 months for a sim session - what a great town.