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Why Not Canadian Amphib/Marine Capability? (merged)

Ex-Dragoon said:
So what would you use the large compartment for when you don't have troops embarked? You cannot just put something like that in a new built ship and just save it. There is no such thing as wasted space onboard ship and when you put said platoon onboard with gear where does the gear that was stored or other personnel go?

I know. I'm on a ship right now. Physically on a ship as I type this. One of those ships on that list in fact.

If you'll go back and re-read, and pay attention this time, I specificed multi-use, and listed several uses. Similar in concept to the auxillary accomodations compartment on the australian armidale class patrol ships. (not going to lie, I've been watching episodes of "Sea Patrol" but bare with me)

I also said uncomfortably. Right now, most of those listed ships have extremely comfortable accomodations (Especially compared to naval standards). Two to a cabin is common, one to a cabin is not uncommon. One multi use room, with triple bunks against the wall would suffice for what I suggest, or perhaps a removable bunk system, say contructing from tubing, sort of triple stacked cots.



The coast guard embarks all sorts of other parties now. Scientific parties, DFO, the RCMP, during the summer several ships carry sea cadets. Also gives the ship the option of additional space for SAR casualities, or additional space to convert for scientific laboratory space, depending on task.
 
a Sig Op said:
I know. I'm on a ship right now. Physically on a ship as I type this. One of those ships on that list in fact.

If you'll go back and re-read, and pay attention this time, I specificed multi-use, and listed several uses. Similar in concept to the auxillary accomodations compartment on the australian armidale class patrol ships. (not going to lie, I've been watching episodes of "Sea Patrol" but bare with me)

I also said uncomfortably. Right now, most of those listed ships have extremely comfortable accomodations (Especially compared to naval standards). Two to a cabin is common, one to a cabin is not uncommon. One multi use room, with triple bunks against the wall would suffice for what I suggest, or perhaps a removable bunk system, say contructing from tubing, sort of triple stacked cots.



The coast guard embarks all sorts of other parties now. Scientific parties, DFO, the RCMP, during the summer several ships carry sea cadets. Also gives the ship the option of additional space for SAR casualities, or additional space to convert for scientific laboratory space, depending on task.

I do pay attention, I have been sailing for 17 years and when someone mentions bringing a platoon onboard ship with gear I tend to pay attention. When someone talks about multi use spaces I pay attention so I do have an inkling of what I am referring to.
 
Ex-Dragoon said:
I do pay attention, I have been sailing for 17 years and when someone mentions bringing a platoon onboard ship with gear I tend to pay attention. When someone talks about multi use spaces I pay attention so I do have an inkling of what I am referring to.

On navy ships perhaps? Civillian shipping, or the coast guard at least, isn't nearly as tight for space. Not even close. Pretty much every crew member gets a private cabin on the larger vessels.

Most of the vessels, 1100s and larger at least, in the above list already have multi use spaces, of varying size depending on the ship and task, which are unoccupied for the majority of the year. Unfortunately, none are suitable for accomodations, as they were never envisioned as that in the design. Different scientific parties usually occupy these spaces when the vessel is tasked.

While it's not feasible to add such a space to any existing vessels, replacements are coming (eventually). It could be incorporated into the design.

Of course, unless the ship has inherent offensive capabilities, it still remains nothing more then a taxi, and not much use for anything other than arctic soverignty, so the same role could likely be accomplished more effectively by air craft, but still, I'm confident it could be done.
 
Actually, forget about the logistics of it for a second, the original point I meant to make is that any sort of militarization of a coast guard vessel is not going to work. At best, you'd be able to hitch a ride for occasional arctic soverignty operations.

Any sort of "marine" force, either for foreign deployment, or even domestic, would need dedicated vessels.
 
a Sig Op said:
Actually, forget about the logistics of it for a second, the original point I meant to make is that any sort of militarization of a coast guard vessel is not going to work. At best, you'd be able to hitch a ride for occasional arctic soverignty operations.

Any sort of "marine" force, either for foreign deployment, or even domestic, would need dedicated vessels.

And here's some folks hitching a ride for a sov photo op. Can I hot bunk with the one on the far right?

 
a Sig Op said:
Unfortunately, none are suitable for accomodations, as they were never envisioned as that in the design.
I had to chuckle at that.
Swamps and arctic tundra aren't particularly suitable for accommodations either, but some of us have managed to live in them. Here you're talking about walls and a roof -- and they don't even flap in the breeze.  :nod:

Mind you, while some are building a complete amphibious force, LGen Devlin did only use the phrase "...there would also be ....a taste of amphibious operations..." I don't think he's planning on taking over the Coast Guard just yet  ;)
 
Suppose the space involved weren't considered primarily as a space to carry Leos around but rather pallets of bullets, paper and Timmies?  A warehousing, or at least an onboard loading dock, accessible by ramp from the stern and elevatator from the helo deck, that would be used to increase endurance and speed of loading - embarked forklift bringing pallets or containers over the stern rather than swaying them on board.

Then, the trade off would be embarked force or endurance.
 
daftandbarmy said:
And here's some folks hitching a ride for a sov photo op. Can I hot bunk with the one on the far right?

Well, if that ice shelf gives way, you may have to warm her up first........... ;D
 
E.R. Campbell said:
The force commander is, conventionally, the naval commander, and, as Old Sweat suggested, he has a great deal of responsibility, including the messy business of fighting and winning the "battle on the beach."

In my (albeit limited) experience, the naval commander has nothing to do with the "fighting" on the beach. Her responsibility is to make the final local call on whether to proceed with the landing or not (based on various factors such as was surprise achieved, did the pre-landing bombardment achieve its breaching effect, in view of the relative importance of the mission do the weather conditions preclude proceedings, are support forces in position, etc.). Once the call to go is made and the Army hits the beach, the directing and control the fighting on the "beach" is fully in Army hands. The naval commander's responsibilities are not finished however: For one thing, he must deliver the support expected from the ships involved in the op; for another, she also, based on reports from the "beach", makes the call to either send the next wave in  - or to withdraw the landing force. The naval commander making that call, regardless of specialized training you mention, is quite unlikely to have knowledge of amphibious assault. In the US case, its likely the admiral in command of the carrier group in overall command - a naval aviator by trade who has never set foot (unless very unlucky) on a gator. When the Brits fought the Falkland war, the overall command of the landing force rested with Commodore "Sandy" Woodwards, a submariner whose sole exposure to something other than subs was command of the destroyer Sheffield.

[p.s.: I'm putting "beach" in quotation marks because nowadays, with AAV's, LCAC's and tactical helicopters, landings take place less and less often on an actual beach.]

All this said, we are not talking about Ottawa deciding to get in the amphibious business in the morning, getting the ship in the afternoon and staffing it the day after with soldiers, airmen and seamen that have never trained for it and sending it to breach the Atlantic wall right away. There will be time to train up to what we have to do. My points were always that, contrary to what is propounded, achieving some reasonable amphibious capability is both financially feasible within the fiscal constraints of Canada and within reasonable training in the techniques, tactics and strategies of amphibious warfare considering the the current experience and knowledge base available in the CF.

The specialized training required of naval officers serving on any amphibious ship would be part of their pre-posting training, just like we currently do for instance, in the case of the navigation officers, combat officers and any other officer in a specialized tactical position, and the Sea logistics officers of course.

I agree with the list of likely tasks of ArmyRick for such force - and that means that, if we were ever facing a "breach-the-atlantic-wall" scenario, we would be doing it in company of allies with the extra experience  and materiel (combat aircrafts) necessary.

I have one more probable task (or at least possible): with speeds of 22 Kts available to Dodko/Canberra types likely for Canadian selection, you can load them with eight to ten Maritime Helicopters when not in use on amphibious operations and turn them into a useful ASW platform for convoy escort. But this is something the MH community and Navy already knows how to do.
 
I wonder how hard and what the legalities would be to say buy an LPD, convert it into a hospital ship during peacetime operations then convert it back to an assault transport in times of war.
 
Now there is an idea politicians could bite into.

We would have the humanitarian capability in peacetimes, and a relevant combat capability during conflict. There a many examples of ships being repurposed in the past, so I would not think there would be too many hurdles, but cost would be one of the first that would have to be answered. The ticklish part, in my mind, would be the perception from belligerents of that ship (pre, during and post conflict). No doubt there would be potential accusations that would have to be hammered out before such an idea could take shape. Still, a hospital (peacetime) turned assault ship (conflict) would be an interesting, uniquely Canadian concept.
 
I suspect that, once it's configured as a hospital, we'd leave it as a hospital during conflict as well -- Role 3 afloat.

Not only is the Canadian military a great fan of inertia, it would be a way to get the NDP et al to buy into supporting an operation; "look, we're humanitarian good guys." And while it may actually be a very useful contribution, it doesn't help this amphibious warfare discussion.
 
Journeyman said:
I suspect that, once it's configured as a hospital, we'd leave it as a hospital during conflict as well -- Role 3 afloat.

Not only is the Canadian military a great fan of inertia, it would be a way to get the NDP et al to buy into supporting an operation; "look, we're humanitarian good guys." And while it may actually be a very useful contribution, it doesn't help this amphibious warfare discussion.

I wonder if we could get two LPDs. One as a dedicated Hospital Ship and the other as a dedicated amphib.....
 
Ex-Dragoon said:
I wonder if we could get two LPDs. One as a dedicated Hospital Ship and the other as a dedicated amphib.....

Maybe they're charging for parking in Halifax so they can buy both.  ;D
 
Ex-Dragoon said:
I wonder if we could get two LPDs. One as a dedicated Hospital Ship and the other as a dedicated amphib.....

Instead of owning these types of ships, why not lease them from a ferry company or something? If you specify in a long term lease arrangement that they need to be configured thus and so, they could be pulled in for annual exercises etc.
 
daftandbarmy said:
Instead of owning these types of ships, why not lease them from a ferry company or something? If you specify in a long term lease arrangement that they need to be configured thus and so, they could be pulled in for annual exercises etc.

The problem with that is your ships do not have the redundant water tight bulkheads, damage control gear etc all over the place like you have on a warship. If the Falklands taught us anything is the need for redundant damage control.
 
Ex-Dragoon said:
If the Falklands taught us anything is the need for redundant damage control.
....and don't transport all your helicopters on one ship.  :-\
 
Ex-Dragoon said:
If the Falklands taught us anything is the need for redundant damage control.

Pity it didn't teach us to have a decent sized merchant marine or fleet auxilliary to be able to call up ships in time of need.

MM
 
Simple, Canada doesn't have the infrastructure and the logistics to field marines and Canada doesn't need a large expeditonary amphibious assault force quite frankly. Although I do support a small expeditionary amphibious army.
 
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