Why Not Canadian Amphib/Marine Capability? (merged)

[Chilme]

Yes it should have been without a marine force

 

[aesop081]

Do we need one ?

 

[dangerboy]

I agree with CND Aviator.  Amphibious assaults are a rather specialized  form of reaching the objective and with the size of our army it is not worth specializing in it.  The USMC and Royal Marines are a large enough field force that they can practice it.  If Canada was to adopt it, I don't believe we would ever do it above company size and that size of formation is to small to make any sort of impact besides small SF types raids which would be handled by CANSOFCOM and you would never hear any details about.

 

[Chilme]

I would think so.  Given the amount of coastline, number of islands, and prevalence on inland waterways that could potentially demand a specialized amphibious capability.  I watched a tv show about the Vandoo's training with the USMC to practice amphibious assaults (using US vessels).  If they were training for it, I presume there is a perceived need. 

 

[dangerboy]

I have to disagree, if Canada was going to be part of an assault on some country that is an island we would most likely be part of a coalition force.  The other countries that have large forces that train in this type of warfare (USA or Great Britain) would most likely be the ones to do the initial assault on  the beach and once the beachhead has been secure than they would send in the remaining forces via airlift.

 

[Chilme]

I agree with CND Aviator.  Amphibious assaults are a rather specialized  form of reaching the objective and with the size of our army it is not worth specializing in it.  The USMC and Royal Marines are a large enough field force that they can practice it.  If Canada was to adopt it, I don't believe we would ever do it above company size and that size of formation is to small to make any sort of impact besides small SF types raids which would be handled by CANSOFCOM and you would never hear any details about.

A pondered a similar concept.  It seems like Canadian SF are depended on for a multitude of roles.  Lets just hope they are not in demand in several rolls at once.  I could foresee CANSOFCOM being overstretched quite quickly.

 

[aesop081]

I would think so. 

I do not. This is a niche capability that requires massive ammounts of resources. We do not have what is required to do it and we have little to no requirement for it.

If they were training for it, I presume there is a perceived need.

You are confusing 2 issues. That does not establish a need for our own marine corps.

 

[SevenSixTwo]

Wasn't it Canadian "Land" forces that landed in WW2? If it was a coalition attack it would most likely be the same.

Also, to someone saying "there are too many islands! We need a marine force!". I disagree.

If the enemy wants to put a large amount of troops on a tiny island with how strong airpower is and how much easier it is to transport land forces I say bomb the island or clear the seas/skys and continue forward.

Besides, we really don't need a lot of WW2/WW3 type equipment/forces at the moment as you can see by our gigantic submarine navy.

 

[Oh No a Canadian]

Given the amount of coastline, number of islands, and prevalence on inland waterways that could potentially demand a specialized amphibious capability.

So the CF should train to attack its own coastlines?

 

[medaid]

Besides, we really don't need a lot of WW2/WW3 type equipment/forces at the moment as you can see by our gigantic submarine navy.

Spoken like someone of the unknowing....

 

[daftandbarmy]

A pondered a similar concept.  It seems like Canadian SF are depended on for a multitude of roles.  Lets just hope they are not in demand in several rolls at once.  I could foresee CANSOFCOM being overstretched quite quickly.

It's not that complicated... really.

I mean, if you're going to pull off another Normandy sure, it's complicated. But moving Coy/Bn Gp sized units around on landing craft/ heli etc isn't that complicated, especially if you're not doing USMC style frontal assaults. Most units (probably like the Van Doos you saw) are quite capable of carrying out these operations, as well as air landing type operations, with realtively little work up training. The staff levels are the ones that really need the preparation, what with all the coordination between shipping/ aircraft, and the weather/sea conditions being so fickle.

As for specialized shipping, I've participated in quite large (Bde Gp) exercises successfully launched from leased civilian ferries. The landing craft can take you right off the car deck (following a piping hot breakfast with the latest newspaper, and a last round of shuffle board, of course).

I would also caution you against underestimating the quality of your average Canadian infantry unit. Not to denigrate our glorious allies, but our folks stack up pretty well in comparison in many cases.

 

[ArmyRick]

If future conflicts take us to repeated incidents or operations in small islands or coast lines that require frequent amphibious operations, than yes at that time, it would be appropriate to re-role some land units to take on that capability. We would also need amphibious ships and landing craft.

I do agree we should maintain a small (and inexpensive) fleet of landing craft, maybe 6-8 LCVP and 1-2 LCU. This would not gobble up much man power and allow us to do limited training in "marine" operations. One of the roles of the future JSS is supposed to be able to support a limited number of "at sea, ready to go" troops.

Watch and see, who knows.

#1, we need to see a larger threat or the potential to operate in these types of operations.

 

[Jungle]

I watched a tv show about the Vandoo's training with the USMC to practice amphibious assaults (using US vessels).  If they were training for it, I presume there is a perceived need.

If you are talking about the trg that took place last year, that event was part of work-up for the NEO Coy. But I see your point; I don't think we need a dedicated Marine force, but we need assets to permit amphibious operations. I have been on 2 operational deployments where the MoE was from the sea, and we are always dependent on others when it comes to maritime movement; kinda like we were with regards to helicopters in Afg.

 

[Chilme]

If you are talking about the trg that took place last year, that event was part of work-up for the NEO Coy. But I see your point; I don't think we need a dedicated Marine force, but we need assets to permit amphibious operations. I have been on 2 operational deployments where the MoE was from the sea, and we are always dependent on others when it comes to maritime movement; kinda like we were with regards to helicopters in Afg.

I'm not suggesting Canada should attack its own coastline/islands.  I'm just saying our forces should be able to operate anywhere on our soil.  I agree with ArmyRick, we don't need a dedicated Corps.  A corps is too big and that would be beyond any perceived need.  However, owning some resources to get the job done by Canadians seems necessary. 

To me it seems ridiculous that a portion of our military strategy is solely dependent on foreign resources.  One can never 100% guarantee they will be available.

 

[SevenSixTwo]

I'm not suggesting Canada should attack its own coastline/islands.  I'm just saying our forces should be able to operate anywhere on our soil.  I agree with ArmyRick, we don't need a dedicated Corps.  A corps is too big and that would be beyond any perceived need.  However, owning some resources to get the job done by Canadians seems necessary. 

To me it seems ridiculous that a portion of our military strategy is solely dependent on foreign resources.  One can never 100% guarantee they will be available.

So instead of Winter Survival training we should begin Extreme Winter Survival training to fight those commies over our islands?

I must admit isn't it not so cost effecient hoping that Canadian soldiers will be trained for arid, cold, air, sea, jungle, etc?

I would imagine it would be cheaper to just train small groups for cold weather, air assault, amphibious assault, mountain warfare, guerilla warfare.

However, as it stands now most Canadian infantry do get some of this training making our infantry extremely valuable, flexible and well trained in comparison to other countries.

 

[daftandbarmy]

If future conflicts take us to repeated incidents or operations in small islands or coast lines that require frequent amphibious operations, than yes at that time, it would be appropriate to re-role some land units to take on that capability. We would also need amphibious ships and landing craft.

I do agree we should maintain a small (and inexpensive) fleet of landing craft, maybe 6-8 LCVP and 1-2 LCU. This would not gobble up much man power and allow us to do limited training in "marine" operations. One of the roles of the future JSS is supposed to be able to support a limited number of "at sea, ready to go" troops.

Watch and see, who knows.

#1, we need to see a larger threat or the potential to operate in these types of operations.

I agree with the idea to retain some landing craft resources along with developing the expertise to run them. If we're not preparing for Tarawa-like assaults, we should also plan to make better use of civilian LC-type and 'littoral' operations resources, on contract, which abound in most coastal environments in Canada.

 

[PanaEng]

Spoken like someone of the unknowing....

spoken like someone of the unknowing of sarcasm...

lol 

cheers,

 

[Chilme]

So instead of Winter Survival training we should begin Extreme Winter Survival training to fight those commies over our islands?

I must admit isn't it not so cost effecient hoping that Canadian soldiers will be trained for arid, cold, air, sea, jungle, etc?

I would imagine it would be cheaper to just train small groups for cold weather, air assault, amphibious assault, mountain warfare, guerilla warfare.

However, as it stands now most Canadian infantry do get some of this training making our infantry extremely valuable, flexible and well trained in comparison to other countries.

I'm not sure what you are trying to say about Extreme Winter Survival vs Winter Survival???  That sound like a different topic.

I would agree with you in that it is expensive and time consuming to train fighting units to fight in all environments.  Once members are fully trained, they are a highly valuable military assets.  Although I will say it would be very hard for a unit to be to excel in all environments.  Its like expecting an elite athlete to be world class at running, swimming, skiing, weight lifting. Not possible!

Although relatively small specialized units for various environments (winter, marine, desert, jungle, mountain, etc) would allow for an affordable answer.  It would give the CF an upto date and advanced capability.  It would be a tall order to expect ,for example, an RCR soldier to be highly capable at rucking, skiing, mountaineering, swimming, canoeing, snowshoeing, shooting, winter survival, desert survival, jungle survival, etc, and in tune with all differences of working in each environment.  It overwhelming.

 

[SevenSixTwo]

I'm not sure what you are trying to say about Extreme Winter Survival vs Winter Survival???  That sound like a different topic.

I would agree with you in that it is expensive and time consuming to train fighting units to fight in all environments.  Once members are fully trained, they are a highly valuable military assets.  Although I will say it would be very hard for a unit to be to excel in all environments.  Its like expecting an elite athlete to be world class at running, swimming, skiing, weight lifting. Not possible!

Although relatively small specialized units for various environments (winter, marine, desert, jungle, mountain, etc) would allow for an affordable answer.  It would give the CF an upto date and advanced capability.  It would be a tall order to expect ,for example, an RCR soldier to be highly capable at rucking, skiing, mountaineering, swimming, canoeing, snowshoeing, shooting, winter survival, desert survival, jungle survival, etc, and in tune with all differences of working in each environment.  It overwhelming.

It also goes hand in hand with what kind of soldier Canada wants. (Using U.S. as example). Alright, your trained as a Humvee driver go do that for 4 years and then we'll talk OR as a Canadian soldier you could get a vast range of training to do multiple jobs. Now part of this reason is because our military isn't very large. So I think for any force specific environemnts (AKA: Marines) to exist we will need to reach our current Military #'s goal of 100,000 soldiers.

 

[Journeyman]

....we will need to reach our current Military #'s goal of 100,000 soldiers.

Do you have a source for this?