Whither the Royal Canadian Legion? Or RCL Withers?
- Thread starter George Wallace
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I haven't the vaguest idea what that means.kstart said:
But that's OK, because...
-- too easy; you are once again back on <ignore>ignore if it's too much
Some here have limited patience for long-winded, self-important diatribes. :
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Sadly, I read it. :not-again: Lesson re-learned.GAP said:
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Honestly If I went to the legion here in my hometown area I would have no more in common with the members than I would if I went to the local pub. And if I really needed assistance I`m fairly certain none of the members there would have a clue how to provide it; as the last veterans in my area are long deceased.
My grandfather benefited greatly in his later years from the legion. They helped modify the house to improve his ability to shower, use the bathroom etc. As a WW2 vet he spent many nights up into his senior years involved with the legion. In fact the first time my dad drove a car was bringing him home very inebriated at the old age of 8. The legion was what the name suggests to my grandfather. Men who had a commonality through the horrors of war and brotherhood of service to country. I don`t see that for my generation.
My grandfather benefited greatly in his later years from the legion. They helped modify the house to improve his ability to shower, use the bathroom etc. As a WW2 vet he spent many nights up into his senior years involved with the legion. In fact the first time my dad drove a car was bringing him home very inebriated at the old age of 8. The legion was what the name suggests to my grandfather. Men who had a commonality through the horrors of war and brotherhood of service to country. I don`t see that for my generation.
Journeyman said:I haven't the vaguest idea what that means.
But that's OK, because... -- too easy; you are once again back on <ignore>
Some here have limited patience for long-winded, self-important diatribes. :
Yeah, that was stupid conceptualization :-[
I would just wish to see some preservation of what's positive of tradition and principles, re-alignment, but I don't know what's possible-- I'd hope for some level of unity, diverseness. I'm sure things will go the way it goes, with our without my opinions/perspectives/diatribes. Conflict resolution process, not sure if that's do-able, someone else here may have familiarity, expertise on that, to assess whether do-able. Organizations go through periods of ups and downs, they can sometimes be corrected if people are motivated to do so.
Remembrance Day is still fresh and I have attachment to that and also recent issues re: advocacy; I'd also hope for principles to be retained which value one veteran, one standard; leave no vet behind. . . in view of
:yellow: and just my :2c: 
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What made the Legion go downhill? This is just my concept which is as follows
It probably had a good membership base as long as we had a large Armed Forces. Certainly we had this until the mid 60s with many veterans from WW2 and Korea being potentially available as members.
That was the era of a national commitment to defence reflected in large numbers of verterans and over 100,000 full time military personnel.
Then the reductions of the Trudeau era hit and the Canadian Forces focussed on a trip wire force in Germany with a decline in forces in being in Canada and a general underfunding of the Reserves.
Fast forward to 2011 where we`ve just pulled out of Afghanistan and where fielding 2500 soldiers on a continuous basis was a big thing for a regular force of 60,000 all ranks with an additional 25,000 reserves. Add that to the many other chain restaurants and bars across the country and you see that with the advent of many places to spend disposable time and money and the decline of the feed of veterans it is only a matter of time where the lines of veterans decline to such an extent that local Legions can`t attract veterans who typically served very short full time stints before the rise of the long service community based soldier force of the mid 60s forward.
As the Forces presence declines across the country so to do those organisations like the Legion who reflect the experiences of community based veterans.
As the long thin line of veterans comes back to the community after their service - the lights of Legions across the country forned with a massive base in the beginning will continue to switch off their lights and lock the doors forever.
It probably had a good membership base as long as we had a large Armed Forces. Certainly we had this until the mid 60s with many veterans from WW2 and Korea being potentially available as members.
That was the era of a national commitment to defence reflected in large numbers of verterans and over 100,000 full time military personnel.
Then the reductions of the Trudeau era hit and the Canadian Forces focussed on a trip wire force in Germany with a decline in forces in being in Canada and a general underfunding of the Reserves.
Fast forward to 2011 where we`ve just pulled out of Afghanistan and where fielding 2500 soldiers on a continuous basis was a big thing for a regular force of 60,000 all ranks with an additional 25,000 reserves. Add that to the many other chain restaurants and bars across the country and you see that with the advent of many places to spend disposable time and money and the decline of the feed of veterans it is only a matter of time where the lines of veterans decline to such an extent that local Legions can`t attract veterans who typically served very short full time stints before the rise of the long service community based soldier force of the mid 60s forward.
As the Forces presence declines across the country so to do those organisations like the Legion who reflect the experiences of community based veterans.
As the long thin line of veterans comes back to the community after their service - the lights of Legions across the country forned with a massive base in the beginning will continue to switch off their lights and lock the doors forever.
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I have been remiss in joining this discussion and in fact was about to start a thread based on the tangent the thread on the RCL’s latest Poppy gaffe had taken. Thanks to Mr. Campbell for doing so. Ironically my tardiness was a result of my being busy with legion activities around November 11th.
First, full disclosure, in addition to 18 year's service in the CF, I've been a Legion member for four years and presently serve on the executive of my branch and zone (the next highest level of organization in the RCL). The fact that I've managed to move rather rapidly up in the legion hierarchy is in of itself one of their problems, a lack of willing and able leadership. (BTW it should be quite easy for those Legion members who this thread has been forwarded to, to figure out my real name, it's in my profile.)
We will make the presumption that there is a need for a bricks and mortar veterans or ex-service persons organization for numerous reasons including social activities as well as advocating for veterans concerns in addition to cyber ones like this site.
The question then is do we set up a new one and let the RCL totter off to die a natural death as suggested by some, or retake what was once ours?
Should we decide on the latter there are some issues. First the problem of actually physically setting it up, by laws membership et cetera. Do we just have an organization or do we establish physical buildings as well, canteens, messes or branches as it were. If we do the later the added expense and time to establish and maintain them is a factor. If we don't where will we choose to meet.
Then we get to membership, who is in? Is this for all CF personal or do we break it up by when we served? An Afghanistan only vets club? A Bosnia only organization? If the later that means some will end up belonging to more than one group, or conversely excluded. O we allow spouses in as Associates, allied nations?
How effective at the national level will this organization(s) be, and how long before it becomes what we want it to be. Anyone a member of the NATO Veterans organization? The UN Peacekeepers? Anyone attended a meeting of any of those or other minor groups.
Not saying that this option is impossible, or wrong, but it will require a lot of effort and may not be worth it in the end. For better or worse the RCL is the brand name in Canada when the masses think of Veterans where that is deserved at present or not.
So we get back to retaking the Legion as an option, how do we do that?
First, full disclosure, in addition to 18 year's service in the CF, I've been a Legion member for four years and presently serve on the executive of my branch and zone (the next highest level of organization in the RCL). The fact that I've managed to move rather rapidly up in the legion hierarchy is in of itself one of their problems, a lack of willing and able leadership. (BTW it should be quite easy for those Legion members who this thread has been forwarded to, to figure out my real name, it's in my profile.)
We will make the presumption that there is a need for a bricks and mortar veterans or ex-service persons organization for numerous reasons including social activities as well as advocating for veterans concerns in addition to cyber ones like this site.
The question then is do we set up a new one and let the RCL totter off to die a natural death as suggested by some, or retake what was once ours?
Should we decide on the latter there are some issues. First the problem of actually physically setting it up, by laws membership et cetera. Do we just have an organization or do we establish physical buildings as well, canteens, messes or branches as it were. If we do the later the added expense and time to establish and maintain them is a factor. If we don't where will we choose to meet.
Then we get to membership, who is in? Is this for all CF personal or do we break it up by when we served? An Afghanistan only vets club? A Bosnia only organization? If the later that means some will end up belonging to more than one group, or conversely excluded. O we allow spouses in as Associates, allied nations?
How effective at the national level will this organization(s) be, and how long before it becomes what we want it to be. Anyone a member of the NATO Veterans organization? The UN Peacekeepers? Anyone attended a meeting of any of those or other minor groups.
Not saying that this option is impossible, or wrong, but it will require a lot of effort and may not be worth it in the end. For better or worse the RCL is the brand name in Canada when the masses think of Veterans where that is deserved at present or not.
So we get back to retaking the Legion as an option, how do we do that?
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Veterans Only. Remove the civilians, close branches where necessary. Canadian and Allied vet's only. (Veteran being someone who has served in a branch of the CF. ) If this means cutting 10 legions down to one central branch so be it. Pay a vet's family member towork the bar and cater out the finger foods to remove the "women's aux." Let's face it our wife's of today would much prefer to be on their husbands arm instead of making ham sandwiches in the kitchen. Not to mention it makes the legion sound as disconnected from today as it is. Use the massive upkeep money to make the smaller number of legions a fun great place to go with the wife. Not a dreary dungeon of old civilians.
The only way the RCL is going to survive in any form for the next generations is by consolidation.....which they seem reluctant to do. There is so much pride, sweat, etc invested into each of the individual branches....nobody wants to give up theirs to join yours....
until that happens, they are going to wither and die on the vine.....
until that happens, they are going to wither and die on the vine.....
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Consolidation, stripping away the functions that consume resources but do not appeal to the future (potential) membership, and continuing evolution in the new environment within which people communicate and maintain contact with those with who they served. If that means virtual Branches, that needs to be explored. If that means inviting the many splinter groups of veterans to be new branches, under compromised terms of reference that fit their own working structures (not "old school Legion definitions"), then its time the Legion started making the compromises to draw veterans back into a central organization that can stand for them.
Perhaps the concept of the Legion remains valid, but it's operational model is a dying vine that needs to be pruned with a solid grasp of what the future needs to achieve.
Perhaps the concept of the Legion remains valid, but it's operational model is a dying vine that needs to be pruned with a solid grasp of what the future needs to achieve.
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To contine:
Some background on the decline of the RCL as I see it and more or less confirmed by other observations here. When I joined up in the late 1970’s the Legion was probably in its heyday. Second World War vets would have been on average in their middle fifties and well established in regards to their careers and family lives. As such they had the time and resources to devote to social activities and charitable work such as would be found in the Legions.
The executives from Dominion to branch level would have been made almost exclusively of WW2 and Korean War veterans. They had inherited this from the previous generation of first World Veterans who established the Legion in the 1920s and were at the time aging out.
For reasons not clear they for the most part declined to accept the newer generation of service persons as “equals” as has been noted. I was eligible for Legion membership in 1977-78 as far as can tell both as an Ordinary member having sufficient service then or as an Associate under my Father's or Grandfathers service. I choose not to (and didn't join until 2007 13 years after I left the Army), probably because it didn't interest me and I wasn't felt welcome.
I can remember being welcomed into a branch on November 11th but shunned the other 364 days of the year as have others. Mind this was not true of all branches then nor is it now. The “real soldiers” who stormed Juno beach or spent their service defending Winnipeg or Debert against a potential Japanese invasion decided that those of us who spent their service on the Fulda Gap or the Isle of Love were not welcome in their little tree house so we didn't try and get in. We in turn passed this attitude on to the next generation who served in Kigali, Medak and Sarajevo, and they in turn to the latest generation who did their time in the Panjawi.
A couple of years back a member of my former branch asked “when are the Afghan vets going to join?” in their media inspired naivety they saw this as a real war and real vets ignoring the previous generations of service and therefore thought the local branch would soon be full of arid cadpat clad warriors clamouring to join the euchre tournaments. They were quite upset at my blunt but probably correct answer of never.”
About the same time as all this was going on the Legion created a new class of membership Associate's for their spouse and kids to join up. It seemed that not all of the little women were June Cleaver types content to be in the Auxiliary and churn out meat pies for the boys. If hubby was going to be downing wobbly pops and playing card on Saturday then so was Mom.
Fast forward a couple of decades and the fifty something's running the place like their First World War predecessors found themselves too old to keep running the place and had to turn it over to a new generation. Problem was though, with a few exceptions the Cold Warriors and Blue Berets had passed on having to spend 20 years sitting at the kids table waiting to be found worthy and weren't there to have the proverbial torch passed on to them.
That left it to their biological children, who probably joined reluctantly because Dad said they had to. Having missed that crucial step in running g a former service persons organization, actually having served themselves, things began to change. Now they in turn are hitting an age barrier and about to turn it over to their progeny , or the newest type of membership Affiliates basically anyone with a pulse, and willing to pony up the annual dues. The average branch has had the proverbial torch passed on to someone whose only connection to the military is Grandfather spent 1939-45 in Borden or worse just joined to play darts every Thursday.
The above is of course a generalization, but not too far off the mark. In many branches there is no connect to the military ethos anymore. Traditions like the opening ceremony, colour parties, parades, have become a thing of rote passed down because it has always been done, but no one remembers why or in some cases even how. In some it's become like that old Star trek episode where Kirk and company finds themselves on some alternate world where the big one went down and the survivors are seen mangling the pledge of Allegiance in front of a tattered Stars and Stripes.
The present leadership are for the most part not bad and/or uncaring people, ok some are, but merely have never been properly led or prepared for their new roles.
Some background on the decline of the RCL as I see it and more or less confirmed by other observations here. When I joined up in the late 1970’s the Legion was probably in its heyday. Second World War vets would have been on average in their middle fifties and well established in regards to their careers and family lives. As such they had the time and resources to devote to social activities and charitable work such as would be found in the Legions.
The executives from Dominion to branch level would have been made almost exclusively of WW2 and Korean War veterans. They had inherited this from the previous generation of first World Veterans who established the Legion in the 1920s and were at the time aging out.
For reasons not clear they for the most part declined to accept the newer generation of service persons as “equals” as has been noted. I was eligible for Legion membership in 1977-78 as far as can tell both as an Ordinary member having sufficient service then or as an Associate under my Father's or Grandfathers service. I choose not to (and didn't join until 2007 13 years after I left the Army), probably because it didn't interest me and I wasn't felt welcome.
I can remember being welcomed into a branch on November 11th but shunned the other 364 days of the year as have others. Mind this was not true of all branches then nor is it now. The “real soldiers” who stormed Juno beach or spent their service defending Winnipeg or Debert against a potential Japanese invasion decided that those of us who spent their service on the Fulda Gap or the Isle of Love were not welcome in their little tree house so we didn't try and get in. We in turn passed this attitude on to the next generation who served in Kigali, Medak and Sarajevo, and they in turn to the latest generation who did their time in the Panjawi.
A couple of years back a member of my former branch asked “when are the Afghan vets going to join?” in their media inspired naivety they saw this as a real war and real vets ignoring the previous generations of service and therefore thought the local branch would soon be full of arid cadpat clad warriors clamouring to join the euchre tournaments. They were quite upset at my blunt but probably correct answer of never.”
About the same time as all this was going on the Legion created a new class of membership Associate's for their spouse and kids to join up. It seemed that not all of the little women were June Cleaver types content to be in the Auxiliary and churn out meat pies for the boys. If hubby was going to be downing wobbly pops and playing card on Saturday then so was Mom.
Fast forward a couple of decades and the fifty something's running the place like their First World War predecessors found themselves too old to keep running the place and had to turn it over to a new generation. Problem was though, with a few exceptions the Cold Warriors and Blue Berets had passed on having to spend 20 years sitting at the kids table waiting to be found worthy and weren't there to have the proverbial torch passed on to them.
That left it to their biological children, who probably joined reluctantly because Dad said they had to. Having missed that crucial step in running g a former service persons organization, actually having served themselves, things began to change. Now they in turn are hitting an age barrier and about to turn it over to their progeny , or the newest type of membership Affiliates basically anyone with a pulse, and willing to pony up the annual dues. The average branch has had the proverbial torch passed on to someone whose only connection to the military is Grandfather spent 1939-45 in Borden or worse just joined to play darts every Thursday.
The above is of course a generalization, but not too far off the mark. In many branches there is no connect to the military ethos anymore. Traditions like the opening ceremony, colour parties, parades, have become a thing of rote passed down because it has always been done, but no one remembers why or in some cases even how. In some it's become like that old Star trek episode where Kirk and company finds themselves on some alternate world where the big one went down and the survivors are seen mangling the pledge of Allegiance in front of a tattered Stars and Stripes.
The present leadership are for the most part not bad and/or uncaring people, ok some are, but merely have never been properly led or prepared for their new roles.
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Danjanou said:
I showed up early for the Remembrance Day services and thus was able to watch an individual from the local RCL drilling his colour party.
Said individual had the prescribed pace stick, mustache, command voice, pot belly and a rack of medals -all on the right breast.
(said individual also had the curious ability, it turned out, to march not just out of step with everyone else, but at a different pace -which is nearly impossible when you have a band playing you onto the square)
The colour party consisted of three legion members, two air cadets and an RCAF corporal they shanghaied from somewhere. They were doing two different types of drill plus no drill at all (the Legion members). It was a gong show.
I realize Remembrance Day services are about respect -not pageantry, but man...
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The RCL is in a no-win numbers game regardless of what they do or don't do. The regular force averages a 7% attrition so that means there is roughly 4750 "new" veterans a year. Even if you allow a similar number for the reserves (smaller force but higher turnover), you are still only covering a fraction of the RCL attrition per year. Note that I'm only using these numbers to illustrate the numbers joining/departing the CF every year and not to indicate that you need to be ex-CF to be a veteran.
That being said, is there a role for a national veterans organization? What is the role? Is it better to have a bunch of smaller niche groups that fill the social need but not the political voice role?
That being said, is there a role for a national veterans organization? What is the role? Is it better to have a bunch of smaller niche groups that fill the social need but not the political voice role?
ArmyRick
Army.ca Veteran
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I think it has been summed up very well here. The RCL needs to transform itself or it will go the way of the dodo as people move on. I am a former Legion member and I did not re-new for similar reasons to what is being said on here. I simply do not feel a connection to that "old guard". Its sad, because the legion was a great organization but if you hold onto certain things and fail to modernize or adapt, you risk being irrelevant.
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2010newbie said:
The RCL and ManuLife feed off of eachother. Unless I am missing something it seems to me they look after eachother before the Veterans.
http://www.rclinsurance.com/
The RCL promotes and advertises Manulife as the place to go for coverage.....hahahaha!!!
cheers
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Sorry, are you saying Manulife should be providing free insurance to Vets? Was there an issue where Manulife did not support insurance policies that were written for veterans? I guess I don't see your connection.
They are the 240th largest company in the world according to Fortune's 2011 Global 500 list with revenues of almost $36 billion. I don't really see how Manulife would be feeding off the RCL or its members.
http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/global500/2011/snapshots/10798.html
They are the 240th largest company in the world according to Fortune's 2011 Global 500 list with revenues of almost $36 billion. I don't really see how Manulife would be feeding off the RCL or its members.
http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/global500/2011/snapshots/10798.html
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Manulife provides medical travel insurance, life insurance, etc to Vets. Same as they do to other large groups and seniors. The Legion works with Dell computers, Mastercard and any one of a bunch of other organizations to bring benefits to their members.
There's nothing diabolical or nefarious in any of this. Move on.
exbirdgunner,
Go read the rules about trolling.
Milnet.ca Staff
There's nothing diabolical or nefarious in any of this. Move on.
exbirdgunner,
Go read the rules about trolling.
Milnet.ca Staff
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I hate to see the Legions close, but until we as a "organization" or "demographic" can get out of the dick measuring habit, things will never change. " Your service isn't as good as mine, or as hard, or as long etc etc" Thats the good thing about ANAF clubs, if you can find them mind you, they never seemed to care where you were or what you did, just that you'd served. I asked my father why he wasn't a member. His 32 years in the Militia wasn't worth anything to the old guys.
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