Which reservist trades have training closest to regular force training?

[Nfld Sapper]

CFSME DP1 CBT ENGR same except for the last 2 MODS which are optional for P.Res, DP 3B Part 1  Recce Sgt/Ops NCO and Part 2 TP WO which are Reg Force courses....

 

[Allgunzblazing]

What about Arty O - apart from Basic (which I know is five weeks), are the remaining phases the same for candidates from both components?

 

[FJAG]

The legal branch - not a 'trade' per se but an officer classification.

All legal officers, reg and res have to have completed law school, a term of articles and be called to the bar in their province. Once they join the branch they have to complete the same curriculum of legal training such as basic legal ops law, miljustice, mil admin law etc courses.

Experience wise both reg and res force legal officer work in the field of law full time. There is of course a delta that develops as reg f legal officers work full time in the field of military law while res offrs work primarily in various civilian law fields.

One major area where some reserve legal officers have much greater experience is in the field of criminal law.

Reg f legal officers generally spend only three of four years in the military justice field before transferring to another speciality. Their cases are mostly low to medium level offences. On the other hand several res legal officers practice their entire lives as Fed Dept of justice, provincial crown or defence counsel and often have handled numerous very serious offences including homicides and sexual assaults.

 

[Jarnhamar]

In dealing with both reserve and reg force clerks it appeared (to me) that there were significant gaps in training between RMS clerks and reserve clerks would have a huge learning curve to get brought up to speed on regular force clerky stuff as far as class C and full time stuff goes.

 

[George Wallace]

In dealing with both reserve and reg force clerks it appeared (to me) that there were significant gaps in training between RMS clerks and reserve clerks would have a huge learning curve to get brought up to speed on regular force clerky stuff as far as class C and full time stuff goes.

At the same time Reg Force RMS clerks posted to Reserve units have significant gaps in their training.  With the amalgamation of the Admin and Fin Trades into this RMS Trade, the CF now has an over abundance of clerks who really are not competent.  The RMS Career Mgr does them no favours by posting Cpls to Reserve units, with a promotion on posting, to become CC of a unit (or more) without their PLQ.  Often they don't have full exposure to their (new) Trade (Reg Force), nor the experience, and now they are expected to know the Reserve Admin System and Reserve Pay System.  These people are being set up for failure that early in their careers. 

So you see.....It works both ways.

 

[PanaEng]

At the same time Reg Force RMS clerks posted to Reserve units have significant gaps in their training.  With the amalgamation of the Admin and Fin Trades into this RMS Trade, the CF now has an over abundance of clerks who really are not competent.  The RMS Career Mgr does them no favours by posting Cpls to Reserve units, with a promotion on posting, to become CC of a unit (or more) without their PLQ.  Often they don't have full exposure to their (new) Trade (Reg Force), nor the experience, and now they are expected to know the Reserve Admin System and Reserve Pay System.  These people are being set up for failure that early in their careers. 

So you see.....It works both ways.

Absolutely right and it is seen countless times that a reg F, newly promoted, new CC in a Res  unit becomes overwhelmed very quickly.  We have been lucky in my unit that the last few clerks posted to the unit have been very quick learners and very capable (and wiling to work almost 14hr days for some stretches of time to get things under control). In a Reg force OR you can have "cells" dedicated to a certain admin task, while in the Res world you don't have all the staff plus added responsibilities; the new clerks have to learn to do everything pretty quickly.

 

[George Wallace]

You have been lucky.  The last four that we have had since 2006 have been quite the opposite. 

 

[jeffb]

What about Arty O - apart from Basic (which I know is five weeks), are the remaining phases the same for candidates from both components?

In addition to BMOQ-L which is common in length to both, Artillery Officer will both do DP 1.1. This course is modded into 5, 2 week mods. Reg Force officers then do DP 1.2 which is another 10 weeks although it is unmodded. The modular aspect of DP 1.1 is really only for reservists as Reg Force member who is recoursed is loaded back at day one for DP 1.1. Doing DP 1.1 in 2 week chunks would be a sheer nightmare and frankly I think it would be very hard to be successful given the skill fade. Most people I have talked to either do it in one or two summers.

 

[nick_the_guy]

I was thinking RMS Clerk, Supply Tech (minus their software MIMMS or whatever its called) or Cook.  Those are WAGs of course.

Sorry, but what's a "WAG"?

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Wild-a$$-guess  ;D

 

[Remius]

You have been lucky.  The last four that we have had since 2006 have been quite the opposite.

I echo that.  We haven't had a "successful" CC in a while or that has done a complete posting.  ironically our reserve clerks (many not clk qualified" do a better job or are the go to people.  Ideally and I have seen it, posting in a CT from the reserves to a reserve unit can work quite well.  They have that expertise and are much more suited to work in that environment.

 

[Jarnhamar]

At the same time Reg Force RMS clerks posted to Reserve units have significant gaps in their training.  With the amalgamation of the Admin and Fin Trades into this RMS Trade, the CF now has an over abundance of clerks who really are not competent.  The RMS Career Mgr does them no favours by posting Cpls to Reserve units, with a promotion on posting, to become CC of a unit (or more) without their PLQ.  Often they don't have full exposure to their (new) Trade (Reg Force), nor the experience, and now they are expected to know the Reserve Admin System and Reserve Pay System.  These people are being set up for failure that early in their careers. 

So you see.....It works both ways.

Both ways for sure though I would go so far as to suggest that the learning curve thrown by reserve units is largely because they may have their own way of doing things not necessarily by the book.  Definitely agree about not posting cpl's to reserve units as clerks.

 

[Allgunzblazing]

In addition to BMOQ-L which is common in length to both, Artillery Officer will both do DP 1.1. This course is modded into 5, 2 week mods. Reg Force officers then do DP 1.2 which is another 10 weeks although it is unmodded. The modular aspect of DP 1.1 is really only for reservists as Reg Force member who is recoursed is loaded back at day one for DP 1.1. Doing DP 1.1 in 2 week chunks would be a sheer nightmare and frankly I think it would be very hard to be successful given the skill fade. Most people I have talked to either do it in one or two summers.

jeffb, thank you for the info. Can you or someone else provide clarification regarding the following -

1. Do Reserve Arty Officers have the option of completing DP 1.1 in one go?;
2. If a Reserve candidate who's chosen to take do the course in one go, fails, say the 4th or 5th module - can that candidate be given the option of starting all over again? Or is this a RTU situation and the candidate gets to complete that particular mod with another platoon?;
3. Is it possible for Reservists to attend the DP 1.2 course?;
4. Apart for BMOQ-L, DP 1.1 and 1.2 are there any other Reg Force courses which are available for Reservists in the Arty Officer occupation?;
5. With regards to annual training exercises - if a Reserve Officer wishes to attend an annual training exercise attached to a Reg Force unit, does that officer have an option of putting in a request through the chain of command? I mean will such a request be entertained?

Thank you all for taking the time to answer my questions.

Cheers.

 

[George Wallace]

Both ways for sure though I would go so far as to suggest that the learning curve thrown by reserve units is largely because they may have their own way of doing things not necessarily by the book. 

Actually there are a lot of differences.  The Reserve Pay System is completely different.  The Reserve Pension Plan is nowhere that of the Reg Force Pension Plan.  There are NO Career Managers in the Reserves, so PDRs and PERs are all handles differently adminstratively.  Route Letters, Claims, etc. are all managed differently.  Class B and Class C SOUs (contracts for a simpler, but incorrect, term) are not seen in the Reg Force.  There are quite a few administration issues not common to both; unique to each.  It is not always "they don't necessarily do things by the book" as there is no legalitiy in not doing it by the book.  "The book", however, has "different authors" and chapters.

 

[jeffb]

jeffb, thank you for the info. Can you or someone else provide clarification regarding the following -

1. Do Reserve Arty Officers have the option of completing DP 1.1 in one go?;

Yes. Many do.

2. If a Reserve candidate who's chosen to take do the course in one go, fails, say the 4th or 5th module - can that candidate be given the option of starting all over again? Or is this a RTU situation and the candidate gets to complete that particular mod with another platoon?;

Honestly I do not know the answer to this for certain but my educated guess is that it is situationally dependent and the Commandant of the school will make that decision on a case by case basis.

3. Is it possible for Reservists to attend the DP 1.2 course?;

Once again I don't know for certain but I have never heard of one doing it unless there was a good reason such as they were deploying. I know several reservists who have component transferred to the Reg Force that have gone back to do DP 1.2.

4. Apart for BMOQ-L, DP 1.1 and 1.2 are there any other Reg Force courses which are available for Reservists in the Arty Officer occupation?;

Yes. There are a whole host of courses that are offered to Reservists in either the same form as the Reg Force course or in an abridged fashion. The FOO course, BC's course, etc.

5. With regards to annual training exercises - if a Reserve Officer wishes to attend an annual training exercise attached to a Reg Force unit, does that officer have an option of putting in a request through the chain of command? I mean will such a request be entertained?

Short answer is probably not and I have never seen it happen nor have I heard of it happening. The Reg Force does not operate under the same training schedule as the reserves and the qualification standards are different. For example, to act as a safety officer in the Reserves you need to be qualified DP 1.1. In the Reg Force it is DP 1.2. That is not the big limiting factor though. Most Reg Force exercises are there to do collective training. As you as a Reservist are not part of the Battery/ Regiment being trained, there would be little value to bringing you along.

This does not mean that the Reg Force and the Reserves do not train together however. When they do, it is usually at the unit / sub-unit level. For example, a Reg Force Battery may be supporting a Reserve Brigades exercise. There are also Regular Army officers and NCOs who are posted to Reserve units to provide support.

Thank you all for taking the time to answer my questions.
Cheers.

 

[Allgunzblazing]

jeffb, thank you so much for your detailed responce.

Much appreciated  .

 

[Eowyn]

Actually there are a lot of differences.  The Reserve Pay System is completely different.  The Reserve Pension Plan is nowhere that of the Reg Force Pension Plan.  There are NO Career Managers in the Reserves, so PDRs and PERs are all handles differently adminstratively.  Route Letters, Claims, etc. are all managed differently.  Class B and Class C SOUs (contracts for a simpler, but incorrect, term) are not seen in the Reg Force.  There are quite a few administration issues not common to both; unique to each.  It is not always "they don't necessarily do things by the book" as there is no legalitiy in not doing it by the book.  "The book", however, has "different authors" and chapters.

And then there is the promotion paperwork, NES and ED&T that is not seen in the Reg F.

 

[Snakedoc]

Reg f legal officers generally spend only three of four years in the military justice field before transferring to another speciality.

Out of curiousity what type of specialities do Reg Force legal officers often transfer to?  Do you mean they transfer out of the legal branch and into other GSO officer classifications?

MARS officer training is same in the Navy between reserve and reg up until the OFP.  After that it's pretty much the same with navigation being the only reg force D-Level 'specialization' reserve officers complete (and no ORO course after that).

 

[FJAG]

Out of curiousity what type of specialities do Reg Force legal officers often transfer to?  Do you mean they transfer out of the legal branch and into other GSO officer classifications?

MARS officer training is same in the Navy between reserve and reg up until the OFP.  After that it's pretty much the same with navigation being the only reg force D-Level 'specialization' reserve officers complete (and no ORO course after that).

I mean that they stay within the legal branch but after doing a job with prosecution or defence they take over jobs in another legal directorate in Ottawa or go to a job as a Deputy Judge Advocate with a regional legal office.

This page will give you an idea about the various directorates etc:

http://www.forces.gc.ca/jag/law-droit/index-eng.asp

 

[pastintop]

Int Op is 100% the same for both reg and res