What’s in a Soldier? How to Rebrand the Canadian Armed Forces

[mariomike]

My sister and her husband both stayed in for the whole ride ( 35 years - Regular Force ) as a service couple. Nice pension. They seem satisfied.

 

[dimsum]

Having an employer (gov't of Canada) that actually acknowledges your existence would be a decent start.

With 80% of the population living in urban areas and 90% living within 160km of the US border, I'm not sure how you square that with the need for operational, strategic and political deployment.  CFB Mirabel?  Garrison Toronto?

Well, the old CFB Downsview buildings are still there. 

Mind you, if we started posting people en masse to Toronto, Vancouver, and Montreal, there will be complaints about the cost of living. 

 

[MilEME09]

Well, the old CFB Downsview buildings are still there. 

Mind you, if we started posting people en masse to Toronto, Vancouver, and Montreal, there will be complaints about the cost of living.

DND would require its own long term housing strategy to make that would, likely involving enough PMQ's and apartments on base to accommodate all personal posted to the base.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Well, the old CFB Downsview buildings are still there. 

Mind you, if we started posting people en masse to Toronto, Vancouver, and Montreal, there will be complaints about the cost of living.

Those are the three largest cities in the country. The Centre of Gravity for recruiting, or should be considered as such.

If we aren't able to recruit a whole bunch of our regular force troops from these cities (like you know, a couple dozen reserve units already do) we really need to get out of the recruiting business and hand it all over to a skilled contractor.

 

[Good2Golf]

DND would require its own long term housing strategy to make that would, likely involving enough PMQ's and apartments on base to accommodate all personal posted to the base.

Which the Government all but decimated to ensure that CAF members and their families had nothing more than what the local citizenry had (or in some cases less, and more poorly supported...thanks CFHA (not!))  For the same underlying reason contracted Service Air was eventually eliminated (how dare family members travel Pri 5/SpaceA), I predict PMQs will never return to the numbers they were provided up until the late-80s to mid-90s.

Based on my personal experience, the process just took too long and there was discontinuity. I first applied in 2012 when I was 21 years old and remained in the process until 2019 when I was 28 years old, when I received a job offer. Unfortunately by that point, I was making a salary equivalent to the rank of Captain in the military. In addition, I purchased a house and worked close to home (about a five minute drive) near a major city. The military was essentially all I wanted to do, but over time, perhaps as a result of maturity and life experience, priorities shifted. I'm now enrolled in a master's program and in two years, my anticipated salary will be equivalent to a lieutenant colonel's; attaining this rank would probably take many, many years of hard-work, dedication, and making connections. I am still interested in the reserves (unfortunately they are not hiring for my specialty), but the regular force does not seem appealing at this point, unless salary was to match the civilian sector's. I think the younger generation is more drawn to money and individuality/expression, as opposed to the rigors of military training and the loss of the aforementioned as some would argue.

OblivionKnight, thank you for providing this snapshot of things going non-optimally...ie. Disappointingly.  Sorry to hear the CAF wasn’t able to attract you, but glad things are working for your career!

Regards
G2G

 

[PuckChaser]

OblivionKnight hit the nail on the head on why we fail to recruit people. There is no reason someone in 4th year university applying in November/December/January shouldn't have a job offer waiting for them by March/April to grab them as soon as they leave school. Same thing with High Schoolers and College kids. Anything more than 6 months should be the exception, not the rule and only for individuals with medical conditions that need deeper investigation or security clearance pre-screening. We consistently run people out of their desire to serve by making them wait years for a job offer and then years in the training system because we designed it to assume everyone is going to serve 25+ years so it's ok to waste the first 2 years of their career in PAT Platoon.

 

[MilEME09]

OblivionKnight hit the nail on the head on why we fail to recruit people. There is no reason someone in 4th year university applying in November/December/January shouldn't have a job offer waiting for them by March/April to grab them as soon as they leave school. Same thing with High Schoolers and College kids. Anything more than 6 months should be the exception, not the rule and only for individuals with medical conditions that need deeper investigation or security clearance pre-screening. We consistently run people out of their desire to serve by making them wait years for a job offer and then years in the training system because we designed it to assume everyone is going to serve 25+ years so it's ok to waste the first 2 years of their career in PAT Platoon.

I have also seen this for RMC, people have already gotten all their offers and selected a school before RMC even sends an offer.

 

[lenaitch]

DND would require its own long term housing strategy to make that would, likely involving enough PMQ's and apartments on base to accommodate all personal posted to the base.

All of which was torn down at Downsview.  It is now open space with some development plans once the feds and city stop fighting over it.

What former base buildings that are left have been re-purposed for commercial use.  I think the site is managed by Canada Lands Corp.  Completely hemmed in on all sides by residential and commercial.

One 7000' runway used by BBD, which is planning on pulling out and moving the Pearson.

 

[FSTO]

OblivionKnight hit the nail on the head on why we fail to recruit people. There is no reason someone in 4th year university applying in November/December/January shouldn't have a job offer waiting for them by March/April to grab them as soon as they leave school. Same thing with High Schoolers and College kids. Anything more than 6 months should be the exception, not the rule and only for individuals with medical conditions that need deeper investigation or security clearance pre-screening. We consistently run people out of their desire to serve by making them wait years for a job offer and then years in the training system because we designed it to assume everyone is going to serve 25+ years so it's ok to waste the first 2 years of their career in PAT Platoon.

This.
Back in the dark ages of 1989, pre cell phone and internet.
From rural SW MB. I walked into the armoury in Brandon in Jan and got off the bus in Chilliwack on Sept 2.
In between that time I had a hernia surgery, did Naval Officer Selection Board, did all the paperwork and tests required in Winnipeg (2 hr drive away). All this with snail mail and land-line.
WTF HAS HAPPENED?

 

[GK .Dundas]

This.
Back in the dark ages of 1989, pre cell phone and internet.
From rural SW MB. I walked into the armoury in Brandon in Jan and got off the bus in Chilliwack on Sept 2.
In between that time I had a hernia surgery, did Naval Officer Selection Board, did all the paperwork and tests required in Winnipeg (2 hr drive away). All this with snail mail and land-line.
WTF HAS HAPPENED?

Simple , they've improved the system.
If it weren't so damned tragic it would be utterly hysterical.
I can't wait for someone to defend the process. Pardon me while I get some popcorn.

 

[FJAG]

Simple , they've improved the system.
If it weren't so damned tragic it would be utterly hysterical.
I can't wait for someone defends the process. Pardon me while I get some popcorn.

My joining the reserves in Toronto in 1965 took a little over two weeks. Being accepted as an OCTP officer candidate in 1969 took a little over two months.

Things seemed to work a bit quicker in the days of expensive long distance phone calls, snail mail and mimeograph machines.

I sincerely doubt whether as a young lad sick and tired of high school I would have had the patience to wait around for as long as the kids have to these days. Mind you in those days there were employment opportunities everywhere for a high school graduate.

What I can't for the life of me understand is that we've been bitchin' about the recruiting system since the 1980s. If we haven't been able to solve a problem that we've identified for forty years then maybe we aren't the employer of choice that we think we are.

:cheers:

 

[ballz]

Conclusion
The CAF has increasing issues in recruitment due to a variety of internal and external pressures, including changing Canadian demographics, changing characteristics of war and conflict, and a lack of budget resources with which to attract top talent.

Ya, thanks.  All of us serving are the 'undesirables' that Tim Hortons and McDonalds turned down.  :

It might not be fully true across the CAF, but there are definitely certain trades where "top talent" has not and will not consider a career in the CAF. Finance is a good example. Go see how easy it is to attract someone who wants to be an accountant into the CAF... 95% have never even considered it as a career option, aren't even aware it's a career option, and to be quite honest are a bit repulsed by the idea when they do realize it. Their perception is exactly that the CAF is a consolation prize for people who had no other good options. And you know what? Money makes the world go around, having shitty accountants and controllers hurts any organization (in the private sector, it makes organizations fail and fold... in the CAF, it makes our financial management and all things that rely on it shittier than any private sector business could ever get without going bankrupt).

Another problem is what is "top talent?" For recruiting, we're really only looking at potential indicators. We use certain measures as predictors of success but no one really has any idea if the bilingual person with great academic performance, Captain of his university sports team, delivering soup to the homeless on a weekly basis, etc. etc. etc. is actually just a glue bag in disguise or not until they actually get put to work and start proving they are as good as they look on paper.

If actual top talent walks in through the door, someone who already has great work experience and a true track record of performance, we start them off at Private or 2Lt. This is a very unique problem, and I understand why it is this way, but it's a real challenge to attracting top talent.

 

[CBH99]

My joining the reserves in Toronto in 1965 took a little over two weeks. Being accepted as an OCTP officer candidate in 1969 took a little over two months.

Things seemed to work a bit quicker in the days of expensive long distance phone calls, snail mail and mimeograph machines.

I sincerely doubt whether as a young lad sick and tired of high school I would have had the patience to wait around for as long as the kids have to these days. Mind you in those days there were employment opportunities everywhere for a high school graduate.

What I can't for the life of me understand is that we've been bitchin' about the recruiting system since the 1980s. If we haven't been able to solve a problem that we've identified for forty years then maybe we aren't the employer of choice that we think we are.

:cheers:

Ouch.  Harsh.

But perhaps not wrong... 

 

[CBH99]

I'm still perplexed by the stories I hear about some people's experience with our recruiting system.

By and large, it should be a pretty streamlined process by now - allowing interested applicants to be processed fairly quickly.  The exception being, as stated above, medical & security clearance issues that may require further investigation.



I feel lucky.  When I first joined in 2006, it was fairly straight forwards.  I sent my application into the recruiting center, was scheduled for my CFAT, medical, and interview all in the same day about 3 weeks later.  A few days later I did my fitness test.  And a few weeks later, I was sworn in.  Easy peasy.

We've all heard stories of us losing pretty awesome recruits due to the recruiting process taking forever, and then having to wait ages to get qualified once they do get in.  I thought most applications went through decently quickly, no? 

(Decently quickly = job offer within a few months of submitting initial application)

 

[mariomike]

My joining the reserves in Toronto in 1965 took a little over two weeks.

Likewise for me in 1970 when I turned 16, just in time for that year's SSEP. I was very thankful to get the trade I wanted.

 

[QV]

I'm still perplexed by the stories I hear about some people's experience with our recruiting system.

By and large, it should be a pretty streamlined process by now - allowing interested applicants to be processed fairly quickly.  The exception being, as stated above, medical & security clearance issues that may require further investigation.



I feel lucky.  When I first joined in 2006, it was fairly straight forwards.  I sent my application into the recruiting center, was scheduled for my CFAT, medical, and interview all in the same day about 3 weeks later.  A few days later I did my fitness test.  And a few weeks later, I was sworn in.  Easy peasy.

We've all heard stories of us losing pretty awesome recruits due to the recruiting process taking forever, and then having to wait ages to get qualified once they do get in.  I thought most applications went through decently quickly, no? 

(Decently quickly = job offer within a few months of submitting initial application)

I can't understand it.  From the time I walked into a recruiting centre to getting on a Greyhound bus taking me to Basic, I don't recall it being much more than 5 or 6 weeks.  It wasn't long at all.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Or maybe they should stop wanting the *cough* best*cough* and start taking more lost souls like they did for me.    Imagine a 17 year old, grade 9 dropout, who had already done 21 days jail and a years probation, even getting past the security guy at a recruitment centre today?  Not a freakin' chance...

 

[Eaglelord17]

The CAF is its own worst enemy when it comes to recruiting.

A ineffective recruiting system hampers efforts to join. This isn't just a CAF problem but a government problem in general. It took me a year and a half to join the CAF. When I applied to work for the RCMP firearms lab, it took 2 years for them to basically get to the point of offering a job. At which point I turned them down since I had found a better paying job after completing college in a area I would rather live during that time. I have had friends I have tried to get into the Reserves, one in particular was extremely interested and is a exceptionally competent and intelligent man. He was ready to do it, but they took too long with his offer and had moved on to bigger and better things.

The targeted shift from rural applicants (i.e. in general not the minorities they are trying to attract) to urban isn't going particularly well. They have closed recruitment centers in the more isolated areas, but those areas tended historically to attract more applicants than the urban centers. The urban centers haven't made up for the losses either. For example, where I am if someone wants to join the Regs they have to apply online or drive at least 3 hours to the nearest recruitment office to be told to apply online. Then get periodically called to drive the 3 hours to do the testing needed to join. Not exactly a convent process and would put a lot of people off joining.

Online only applications are a brutal way to apply. I applied by paper, and I hate applying for anything online. If you want to say your not worth our time, this is how you do it. Your turning it from a experience you can guide someone in (ex. 'Hey what do I need to put here?' Oh you need to write your xxx there) to having to fight your way though it on your own time. It also means that when someone shows up to a recruitment center your basically telling them to GTFO and apply online, which isn't exactly something people like to be told. I understand its penny pinching which caused the online only process but its hurting the CAFs bottom dollar. I know if I drove 3+ hours to see a recruiter to just be told to go back home and apply online I wouldn't be happy.

I could keep going as to the things that hurt the CAF when you do get in but we all have a idea of that. When retention sucks and recruitment sucks they are in for some hard times ahead.

And for the record there is a good number of people in the CAF who are there just because they couldn't find anything better in life. Not saying everyone is, but I am wondering if that has something to do with the increase in older applicants over the years (it also doesn't mean they are bad troops, simply that they joined because there was nothing worthwhile for themselves civvy side which can adversely be a perk for the CAF as those people will stay until the end).

 

[mariomike]

I was just a part-time soldier. But, I loved it.

As far as the Regular Force is concerned, it seems to me that the job sells itself.

There's so many jobs in the CAF. If you qualify, you can apply for any one of them.

You get to serve your country.

It's a job with guaranteed security, and opportunities.

 

[FJAG]

In many ways the problem is systemic to the government and not just DND.

Back in 2006-9 I worked three years in Ottawa on a project which had as part of it's staff three paralegals. I would lose those on a regular basis because mine were at entry level pay and the DoJ would hire them away at a higher pay rate. The trouble was that every time I would lose one the civilian hiring process had almost a six month cycle between identifying a need and filling the position (then add on another two to three months to learn the job - just in time to be hired away by DoJ - for whom it was a lot quicker because the candidate was already in the PS stream now)

Back with my law firm in Manitoba when we needed new staff we could generally do an advertisement, do all interviews within a week and hire the same day. Sometimes when we were robbing other firms (which we did often because our habit was to pay just a smidgen more then everyone else in the area) we had to wait for them to fulfill their two week notice period with their old firm. On the other hand we also had a list of prior acceptable interviewees and so could literally fill a position the day after a position became vacant.

This is why I keep laughing at using the term "agile" for the Army. The whole DND (GoC) structure is so process bound that agility is the least of its character traits. Sluggish is more apt.

:cheers: