Weapons modification RANT.

[PhilB]

I think that ideally the CF needs to go with a combination optic ala the S&B Short Dot. Although the S&B is ridiculously expensive there are other options. The new elcan specter DR sight, the ACOG TA31DOC to name a couple. I agree a designated marksman is perfect, at least 1 or 2 per pl. We need to be more flexible. I think that DND needs to open its eyes to the wealth of experience that is out there. Although tactics and trg are not the same look south, they since beginning the TWAT (The War Against Terrorism  best acronym ever!@) have been in combat. I look at the marine corp because in my opinion they are the most similiar to our army. They are adopting the ACOG as their standard optic and providing squad designated marksman.

 

[vonGarvin]

I am going to weigh in here as a VERY average shooter.  I think I-6 and others have it right when the words "Perfect Practice" and "Trigger Time" come into the mix.  (As an aside, trigger time and perfect practice are what I am er  "shooting" for with regards to stabilised weapons of 25mm and bigger, but that is another thread, another time).  As someone said, they were surprised when troops said that they didn't like the EO-Tech.  Now, I couldn't pick one out of a line up of one sight, but from what I read on here, it is an effective tool.  Very effective, I assume.  BUT, and here's the kicker, you could have the best, VERY BEST do all, see all sight in the universe, but if the squaddie doesn't know how to use it properly, you may as well give him a board with a nail in it (until he has a board with a nail in it so large that they destroy themselves, even!)

Training is in the process of being modified.  That is step one.  Structure of the team (TF level and higher) is also being modified.  Looks like it's the right direction, and here's hoping it keeps going that way.

As for rubber rifles, their best application is for DS on course to lug around (/sarcasm, naturally/).  Here's a "did you know?" for you: they were designed for teaching bayonet fighting. 

 

[BARBARIAN.X]

I was considering not sending my bro an EOTech based on what some of you were saying but I sent one anyway. I figured he has more time in than most of you spouting off and is currently in Astan so if he thinks he needs one I’ll send it. Some of you made very valid points and I’m not trying to discredit them. I got a message yesterday thanking me for the EOTech and though he couldn’t give any details he said it saved his life the other day. Take it for what it’s worth but that’s the best f’n money I ever spent. I’m sitting here pondering what might have happened had I listened to some of you and at the same time glad I didn’t!

 

[boondocksaint]

we used 'Fighting Age Guy' as an acronym also

makes me giggle

 

[Fishbone Jones]

I was considering not sending my bro an EOTech based on what some of you were saying but I sent one anyway. I figured he has more time in than most of you spouting off and is currently in Astan so if he thinks he needs one I’ll send it.

Many of the people that participated have lots of time on ops. Many probably have more time than your brother. Be proud of him, but don't be juvenile about it.

Some of you made very valid points and I’m not trying to discredit them. I got a message yesterday thanking me for the EOTech and though he couldn’t give any details he said it saved his life the other day.

I'm glad for you, and, more importantly, your brother. Hope he makes it home ok.

Take it for what it’s worth but that’s the best f’n money I ever spent. I’m sitting here pondering what might have happened had I listened to some of you and at the same time glad I didn’t!

You came here for advice, we didn't seek you out and foist our opinion on you. Many knowledgeable posters offered their professional opinion, based on their experience, and the information presented to them at the time. Based on what they, and your brother, do for a living, and because of them, you're free to do and say whatever you wish in our democratic society. However, these guys spent 7 pages trying to give, and debate, advice to give you the best solution, and you return with an ungrateful, backhanded slap. Normally, we don't tolerate asshats well, but if you need anymore advice to help ensure the safety of your brother, we'll help as best we can. Anything else, I believe you'll be wasting your time.

 

[KevinB]

Von Garvin -  actually the initial rubber rifles (the M16A1 ones) where at CABC   

Honestly I'd love to deck the CF out with S&B short dots -- but its a 2k optic less a Larue or ARMS mount.


I think the direction going in now is the right one. -- not perfect -- but then it never is and while we can strive for better its not worth waiting for perfect to implement.


With the next SARP program for 2010-2015 maybe we can dream 

 

[GAP]

With the next SARP program for 2010-2015 maybe we can dream 

Which means they are doing or have done the specs for the next generation. If there is still time, maybe some judicious submissions on what has been learned would be in order.

 

[vonGarvin]

Von Garvin -  actually the initial rubber rifles (the M16A1 ones) where at CABC   

Wow.  I didn't know that.  All I remember saying way back on my Small Arms Instructor course was "WTF are these things for???"

Too bad it took close to 20 years to get an effective bayonet back into CF service, though.  Well, I don't know if it's effective or not, but certainly better than the one we had that was made of prime bone china!

 

[COBRA-6]

Here is a very interesting article by Zak Smith about the 6.8mm SPC for those who enjoy these kinds of things...

http://coloradomultigun.com/misc/sgn_68spc.pdf

Interesting to note that all you need to swap out is the barrel, bolt and mags from a C7/C8, and you could have the DMR paracowboy wants for the weapon dets. Would modifying existing weapon stocks be easier (I'm thinking procurement process) than getting the approval to buy a complete new 7.62mm weapon (like the Mk11 I referenced earlier)? The big issue of course is the 6.8mm round not being a NATO standard one.

 

[HItorMiss]

I had an EOTECH on route to me when I went on operation, are there better sights on the market sure is. Can everyone afford a $2000 for some of them....not likely EOTECH's are good sights you just have to know how to use a reflex holo sight to get it's max effect. I used the Elcan and I missed with my first round because it was not a reflex sight however the fact that it is a 3X power sight it did help with my follow on rounds where as the EOTECH would not have, I think sights are a preference thing and situation dependent on the mission.

Personally I like the EOTECH, I also like aim points like the ACOG but as I said not everyone has 2K to pay for sights.

 

[BARBARIAN.X]

Many of the people that participated have lots of time on ops. Many probably have more time than your brother. Be proud of him, but don't be juvenile about it.

No matter how you shape it, my comments IMHO were a statement of fact. That is how I made my final decision juvenile or otherwise.

You came here for advice, we didn't seek you out and foist our opinion on you.

I agree, I did come here for advice and did formulate my own opinion, no one forced me. I'll readily admit that I don't know squat about this stuff which is why I came here and because of my admitted lack of knowledge I found it more difficult to sort out the mixed responses.

Many knowledgeable posters offered their professional opinion, based on their experience, and the information presented to them at the time. Based on what they, and your brother, do for a living, and because of them, you're free to do and say whatever you wish in our democratic society.

I agree with this. I also received good info from some members via email and PMs in addition to the forum postings for which I'm grateful.

I’m sitting here pondering what might have happened had I listened to some of you and at the same time glad I didn’t!

However, these guys spent 7 pages trying to give, and debate, advice to give you the best solution, and you return with an ungrateful, backhanded slap.

I'm sorry you and possibly others see it that way but I was given some not necessarially incorrect info, but incorrect for the situation, I'm sure unknowingly, which caused me to rethink my purchase. I don't regret sending it and I don't regret saying that I'm glad I did. To anyone that was offended I apologize but that does not change how it went down for me.

Normally, we don't tolerate asshats well, but if you need anymore advice to help ensure the safety of your brother, we'll help as best we can. Anything else, I believe you'll be wasting your time.

I get called worse everyday in my line of work so fill yer boots and exercise that freedom you spoke of. I won't even dispute it because I know I can be a dick at times as a result of dealing with some of the mosted F'ed criminals Canada has to offer. Looks like I rubbed you the wrong way but I commend you for still being willing to help even though you think I took a piss at ya. That's cool, thanks.
I'm sure someone will dissect this response to the negative and no matter how anyone may view it I have the utmost respect for our troops but when it come to my bro and his safety or any of my family it's a whole different level.
Sorry for going OT, I humbly place myself at your mercey, thy will be done. 

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Thanks for confirming my post(s). Especially the last one.

 

[KevinB]

to unhijack...


6.8 -- jury is still out due to broken bolt issue (about half the life of a 5.56mm bolt according to the US AMU)
  5th SFG is still playing with them, MSG Stephen Holland is the driving force behind the thing and he is their S7 (force modernization) NCOIC
They dropped the ammo pressure (and velocity) in a drive to lenghten bolt life -- I have two 6.8's on order -- ut have no intention on wearing them out in order to find the bolt life.  I think for a Tier1 unit 6.8 may be the ticket -- since they typically have a huge budget so replacing bolts is nothign for them -- and also they dont play well with others so ammo cominality is not the biggest issue.

BigRed goes back to Iraq next week - and maybe he can take a drive over to some friends and see if the 6.8 is working 

 

[boondocksaint]

Eotech - uggh hopefully they can be opened large enough, my bad

 

[COBRA-6]

Infidel, is it the bolt or the BCG that is wearing out faster? If it is only the bolt do you think the extra cost of shorter bolt-life is worth the increased balistics?

 

[zipperhead_cop]

Eotech - uggh hopefully they can be opened large enough, my bad

Hey, here is fun with an Eotech simulator!  Paper targets, though. 

http://www.eotech-inc.com/index2.php

 

[COBRA-6]

at the EOTech booth at the CANSEC show they have sights with the glass broken, the sight still works as long as some glass is left in it, neat technology!

 

[zipperhead_cop]

So this one has been all over, but have we decided that the Eotech is the best bet for a reliable upgrade for the weapons optics, but realize that there is other more expensive (better?) Gucci sights as well?  And how much would you expect to pay for one?  Would it be a bad idea to buy one second hand, or are they pretty rugged?  (Yes, I know, second hand kit for combat=dumb idea.  I'm just thinking for training pre-deployment to get used to the system)

 

[COBRA-6]

I think it's another good tool in the box, and one that's currently being issued! As several posters have stated from first hand experience, it does its intended job very well, but it is not the right tool for every job.

 

[zipperhead_cop]

I think it's another good tool in the box, and one that's currently being issued! As several posters have stated from first hand experience, it does its intended job very well, but it is not the right tool for every job.

Rog.  Seems like good close quarters kit.  Do they have a variable magnification sight with the holograms?  Sorry if it was already covered, I'm a novice compared to you guys.