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War Museum Controversy and Follow-up Thread [merged]

Michael Dorosh said:
Does it matter, though - doesn't it matter that they want to go out and learn more, by reading books and talking to veterans and finding out for themselves?   Shouldn't the museum be a starting point?   And not the end-all?

Canadian public - will go to the museum, see the paintings, assume everyone in the CF is a "violent lout" then, quite content that"they" know whats going on, will get back on their cell-phones and chatter aimlessly on about health care and "why do we have an army anyway...Its not like they DO ANYTHING!?"  

Just like F*****G lemmings...Thats the Canadian public!

Slim (who ,at times, is really fed up and pissed off with our spoiled and pampered population)
 
Michael Dorosh said:
Does it matter, though - doesn't it matter that they want to go out and learn more, by reading books and talking to veterans and finding out for themselves?   Shouldn't the museum be a starting point?   And not the end-all?
Well, when I went there, the vast majority of the people leaving were not all charged up on Canada's glorious military history. (no sarcasm intended, I really believe that). They weren't off to dig up a veteran or learn anything for themselves. I suspect Museum Curators would LOVE to believe that patrons leave in this new and transcended state, but I fear not. In these days of pre-digested pap, and crappy school systems, and "every one is a winner, so don't work too hard" museums are probably the end-all - not the starting place.

I think a director who thinks to "shock and jar" and "make the patrons think" is probably labouring under the assumption that the average patron is as well-educated and intellectually challenged as they are. This is reducto ad absurdum. It ain't so. You are proceeding from a false premise. Design the institution to assume no intellectual rigour in the patron, an inherant laziness, and a predilection for the 30 second sound bite. THEN you will capture their attention (albeit for 30 seconds) and you may have a chance to educate or illustrate.

Sounds bleak, but that's how the average (note: average) Canadian high school student is. And how the average middle aged Canadian has become.

Cheers

PS:: For JMacLeod: Penny Collennette is a visiting fellow at the University of Ottawa, and definitely out of favour with the Martin-ites.
 
I think, like Macleod, it's time for me to drop out of this thread. CWM's aim is, as stated, "preserve, educate, remember"--but how one educates is, of course, open. I think a few shocks help to open minds long closed (or never opened). I don't need any persuasion on how little Cdns know of their history--I taught for 30 yrs--but we must continue to try. Just getting a new CWM is a long step forward in education on this subject.
  And yes, people will walk away from CWM knowing much more about Passchendaele, the Scheldt, Kapyong, and Somalia. If they even walk through, how could they not? Go and see it!
 
Here is another view, from Roy MacGregor in today's Globe and Mail:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/ArticleNews/TPStory/LAC/20050613/MAC13/TPColumnists/

It's the small things that catch us off guard at impressive war museum

By ROY MacGREGOR
Monday, June 13, 2005 Page A2

He doesn't talk about it much.

In fact, he doesn't talk about it at all, apart from when he really has no other choice but to confirm or deny what others might have said without knowing what really happened.

He was in the air force. He was a radio operator on a Vickers Wellington that went down in the Mediterranean early in the Second World War. One didn't make it. The rest were rescued by Allied forces just as the leaking dinghy began taking on water.

Those details he has reluctantly confirmed.

He was, in the photograph of him in uniform that still sits in the family farm back in Saskatchewan, handsome as a movie star. He's still tall and straight and hardly looks his 83 years and roamed through Ottawa this past week as a newlywed -- his first marriage -- on his way to meet his new family in Nova Scotia.

The still-honeymooning couple stopped for a few days with old family, as well, and it seemed only appropriate to take Fred -- he wouldn't want the attention his full name might draw back home -- off to see the new Canadian War Museum.

It is an impressive, imposing building that is supposed to look like a bunker and sits on long-disputed municipal property known as LeBreton Flats. It was designed by Ottawa's Alex Rankin and Toronto's Raymond Moriyama (whose own war connection involves an internment camp in the B.C. Interior), opened on May 8, V-E Day, and cost $132-million.

Its story is, in fact, all about cost, but not the kind that comes with a dollar sign.

The most compelling displays are not the weapons of destruction -- the tanks and guns -- but the art.

Much of it is battle-oriented, as you might expect, but even here it has an effect that strikes someone who lucked into peace in ways that he might never before have considered. Alex Colville's painting of a dead paratrooper, for example, dark and dead in an open field while a cow stands nearby, back turned and its attention on the next meal.

But it is the paintings of what once passed for everyday life in war that truly rattle one who wasn't there. The Canadian airmen laughing over beer in a British pub, such sadness in their eyes. The soldiers sitting on rough benches to watch a Donald Duck cartoon. The woman entertaining the troops, the painting and song sharing the same title: "You'll Get Used to It."

Impossible and improbable as it seems, people did. There is even one absolutely stunning painting tagged "British Women and Children Interned in a Japanese Prison Camp, Syme Road, Singapore, 1945" that shows pale, skeletal children going about their lives: one repairing a shoe, one brushing her teeth, one child even sitting on a potty.

It is said that if you walk the entire museum you will cover two kilometres and travel from before the Plains of Abraham to beyond the horrors of Somalia. It is big things that catch the eyes of the children -- the huge tanks, the 18-pound shells -- but the small things that catch the rest of us off guard.

Small things, like the lucky rabbit's foot that took merchant mariner Percy Kelly through two sinkings and helped him save more than 70 crewmates when CNSS Lady Hawkins went down in 1942.

Small things, like the display honouring Private George Price, who died from sniper fire on Nov. 11, 1918, killed moments before the armistice and remembered as the "The last soldier killed in WWI."

Small things, like imagining what it must have been like that morning to hear The Globe and Mail -- "3 cents per copy" -- thud against the door and fall open to the headline of Monday, Sept. 11, 1939: "CANADA DECLARES WAR!"

Small things, like the window in the memorial hall where the architects promise that every Nov. 11, at precisely 11 a.m., the sun, if it happens to be out in Ottawa, will shine through and, on the opposing wall, light up a small white stone that reads: "A soldier of the Great War. A Canadian Regiment. Known unto God."

It is a remarkable experience to pass through this place, whether you are 8 or 83. You can stand and watch children running their hands over a cannon barrel that has been blown apart. You can watch while a tour from a seniors residence passes slowly through the stunning recreation of the bleak, burned-out Passchendaele battlefield, the wheelchairs at one and the same time seemingly out of place and most assuredly in place.

There is almost too much to see -- Hitler's parade car, video of Dieppe, taped interviews with red-eyed veterans -- but perhaps there should still be one more small exhibit.

A simple room with nothing on the walls and nothing but silence to commemorate all the thousands of Freds who just never talk about it.

He is tired now, having walked for two hours and travelled decades. He is ready to go, still ramrod straight, still staring straight ahead.

Was he impressed, he is asked.

"Yes."

I expressed my views on this (and all) museums a bit more than a month ago (on page 4 or 5, I think).  Ask me in a few years and I will tell you if this is a 'good' museum when I examine its library/reading room to see if serious scholars are working there, trying to make the impact of war on Canada and Canadians clear to my grandchildren.

When I feel the need to remember, memorialize the greatest Canadians I will walk to the cenotaph.


 
My brother and I are going to visit the museum this Sunday.

I will post my thoughts here after I return.

Slim
 
Hey all,

Finally got my chance to see the museum, well worth it.  I am going to pick up on a few things that I didn't like simply because to list all the good things would take this months complete bandwidth allotment.

The visitors guide and  the"which way signs" were not explanatory at all,  they seem to have been written for those who already had an understanding of how the building was laid out. Definitely needs clarification.

The info signs around the various pieces of kit in the Gallery were terrible, not nearly enough info, small letters and sitting on the ground a lot of older people wouldn't even be able to read them.  [ and on a Gunners note, surely one could find a muzzle break for my friend the
L-5]

Please put a sign up indicating the location of the "reflection room", the only reason I found it is because while the family was in the boutique, I was scouring the area for some friends and watched someone " dissapear" into some little opening hidden along a wall.
In my opinion, that room is required visiting for the public for the powerful statement it gives, mark it as so.

Now , the moment of truth, the paintings, well Sussex 11, I guess its a draw. The portrait of Clayton Matchee I thought was in the perfect spot beside the painting of General Dallaire just after having seen all the dangers of peacekeeping, cold war, etc. I think it showed the public the human price of what it is soldiers are called upon to do, the human frailty if you will. It belongs there in its location.
However, the portrait of Kyle Brown in the main lobby was pathetic. I can't think of one reason why it is even in the museum, it looked out of place and even after explaining it to my daughters they didn't understand it. The "dice" thing is/was just plain stupid, even my 12 year old thought it was "dumb"[ without any prompting on my part]. I really cannot put into words how utterly moronic that painting looked there, it DID NOT tell a story, it DID NOT have anything to do with the events in Somalia, and.............etc.

Now after saying all that, what a wonderful place. I will be going again without the children so that I can enjoy it longer.
[ parents beware, it is a lot of walking for young ones]




 
Oh, and one thing that slipped my mind untill now, much as he is/was not my favourite PM, turn up the sound on the video clip[" just watch me"] for the FLQ crisis. It is always refreshing to see the last time a Canadian Prime Minister  actually used some balls.
 
I just returned from an extended road trip of several months so i was unaware of the controversy about the CWM so i viewed the place without any pre-conceived notions.  During my travels i visited 8 different military museums including over seven hours at the CWM.  I am passing on my 2 cents of comments. Firstly i did not even notice the oft mentioned controversial paintings and neither did my companions but then we wern't speciffically looking for them. My biggest impression was that everything wasn't finished yet and must be a work still in progress. The layout and directions to see all the displays i found poor as i came away after 7 hours not knowing if i had seen all the displays or missed some rooms altogether. I found numerous items on display with no explanition as to what they were or why they were on display, i found myself on several occasions trying to explain items to mystified members of the public. Some individual battles i found covered quite well but they didn't seem to be tied to other battles or in any order but i guess that comes with trying to cover so much material in only a limited amount of space. Overall my impression was favourable but like i've said before that the place doesn't seem to be finished yet , but it certainly shoul get the unwashed masses thinking.

Cheers
 
Our associates and I have commenced the procedure to submit a formal complaint to the Canadian
Human Rights Commission Ottawa, focused on the paintings of two former Canadian soldiers who
are Aboriginal Canadians. We feel that both paintings reflect discredit on all Aboriginal Canadians
who have served in the Canadian Forces, and will be the subect of much controversy unless both
are removed. These paintings have been the subject of complaints from Mr. Clifford Chadderton
War Amps Canada, and Mr. Peter Worthington, Journalist, plus many others. MacLeod
 
Well, as much as the Matchee/Brown painting controversy left a bad taste in my mouth, the banality of going to the Human Rights Commission is too much for me.

No one is violating the rights on Natives, and trying to paint the issue in this way completely misses the point.  By doing this, you seem to be implying that Natives can't get by in life without worrying about the spectre couple paintings of Native dudes.

Kinda reminds me of the stupidity that is SHARP....
 
We feel that both paintings reflect discredit on all Aboriginal Canadians
who have served in the Canadian Forces, and will be the subect of much controversy unless both
are removed.

One question...

WHY!?
 
The Canadian Human Rights Commission will decide the issue. The paintings should be removed
or better still, destroyed. They will be the subject of controversy as long as they are displayed
-I agree with Mr. Chadderton and Mr. Worthington. If the Canadian Human Rights Commission
decides otherwise, so be it. It is obvious however that the bureaucrats chosen to run the
facility have no real empathy with the Canadian Military of Canadian military history - this is a
problem in all the Federal Museums in Canada, staff with their own Agenda. It is ironical in
this country that the best museum facilities are in the private sector, like the restored HMCS
Sackville, a Town Class Corvette, restored as an complete and accurate tribute to the members
of the Canadian naval forces of World War II who fought in the Battle of the North Atlantic.
The staff are all volunteers, most if not all former members of the Canadian post war Navy-
it is not a Federal government resource. MacLeod
 
You still haven't answered my question...

Why?
 
"Well, as much as the Matchee/Brown painting controversy left a bad taste in my mouth, the banality of going to the Human Rights Commission is too much for me.

No one is violating the rights on Natives, and trying to paint the issue in this way completely misses the point.   By doing this, you seem to be implying that Natives can't get by in life without worrying about the spectre couple paintings of Native dudes.

Kinda reminds me of the stupidity that is SHARP"

Funny, it seems to me that it is alright for everyone to get upset when the issue is about the CF but, when someone takes issue with it from a racial point then they are just being paranoid. No, I don't think it is a human rights issue at all in fact I think it is a bit silly but, I am not offended by the paintings in any way, shape or form from a CF point of view or a racial point of view. I in fact think that the paintings should remain right where they are to show the good and bad sides. By no stretch of the imagination do I think the disbandment of the CAR was justified, it was a knee jerk reaction and window dressing in an attempt to show the public that the Government was proactive, which was a failure as far as I am concerned.
 
Once more citizens of this Country visit the "new" War Museum they will notice the level of
mediocrity which permeates the facility - it is not good enough in the  National scheme of
focus on Canadian military history, period. The arrogance of members of the staff of a public
resource also is distastefull - so changes must be made in the public interest in our opinion
-there will be changes over time. We expect contrary opinions, but the opinions we listen
to are from the Chadderton's and Worthington's of this country. We do not intend to debate
this option provided to us by the Government of Canada. MacLeod
 
I must be missing something here...

I spent about four hours in the CWM a couple of weeks ago.  Overall, I thought it was pretty decent.  A little too "happy Canadian peacekeeper" in the modern section for my tastes, there was some mislabeling (probably the result of the move from the old building) or no labeling at all, and I was a touch confused as to what the "Northwest Resistance" was...  A tad PC.  My guess is that many of the museum's display problems are connected with the newness of the facility and the move from the old CWM.  The staff on the floor was very helpful and spotted immediately that I was serving military (must be the hair!) - getting me in for free... :)

However, I saw both paintings and the two of Romeo Dellaire and cannot for the life of me see where (1) there would be any foundation in saying that they're being displayed due to some racial element and (2) what the big deal was.

Frankly, IMHO the paintings concerned are downright bad.  The one of Brown is laughable and a perfect example of "modern art" (to paraphrase Churchill).  They're amongst literally hundreds of other paintings - some of them controversial subjects from the Second World War, including one of a drowning that is quite horrific.  I had to go out of my way to find them.

Poor choice?  Probably.  Worthy of a formal complaint?  Hardly.

One last thing:  if you're listening to the Worthingtons of the country in order to guide your opinions, you're going to get sidetracked very quickly.  He's part of the Scott Taylor cabal and his latest reporting from Kabul (during my tour) was laughably poor and slanted, as was discussed at length here at the time.
 
Teddy Ruxpin said:
I must be missing something here...

One last thing:   if you're listening to the Worthingtons of the country in order to guide your opinions, you're going to get sidetracked very quickly.   He's part of the Scott Taylor cabal and his latest reporting from Kabul (during my tour) was laughably poor and slanted, as was discussed at length here at the time.

I was not going to reply at all as I was angry and frustrated. But I feel the need.

My point from the beginning was that the Canadian Airborne Regiment was disbanded because of the Somalia incident. I do not agree with anyone being murdered and that if any Canadian soldier murders a man anywhere in the world then he should face the music.

My point is that I really think deep down in my heart that the government or the brass did not defend the Canadian Airborne Regiment at all and used the whole incident as a reason to cut the budget. Hence the Regiment was disbanded. There has been other wrong doings by Canadian soldiers through all of its history but this was the first time that many paid the price for the few.

And by showing the painting, it shows justification for the political decision at the time. That is what I am in total disagreement with.

So in a nutshell, by showing the painting in the museum they add to the justification in not what the real truth is of why the Canadian Airborne Regiment was disbanded but  perpetuating the incident as what was intended to disband the Regiment.
 
Gramps said:
Funny, it seems to me that it is alright for everyone to get upset when the issue is about the CF but, when someone takes issue with it from a racial point then they are just being paranoid.

I never mentioned paranoia, I said banal.

Are you trying to say something here?
 
Written back and forth to Journalist Peter Worthington since his story on the death of Lee Harvey
Oswald in Dallas in November 1963. Worthington is one of Canada's foremost journalists. Don't
know anything about Taylor or his "cabal" whatever that is, have not read anything by Taylor
for years, just not interested. Journalist Worthington is not part of anything but the Toronto Sun
-an interesting paper, don't always agree with it, but that's what journalism is all about. Worthington
would get a good laugh about being part of a "cabal". MacLeod
 
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