War Museum Controversy and Follow-up Thread [merged]

[George Wallace]

Gradually, the anti-military message will
become more prominent, at the same time, funding for the War Museum will gradually be
reduced, as it was for the former Ottawa facility, and has been for military museums across
Canada, which in many cases are supported with generous donations from the private sector.
Only a significant change in the National Government will change the plan to denigrate this
country's commendable record in all the wars and peacekeeping/peace enforecment operations.
MacLeod

I suppose, if we had   compulsary 'National Service', the 'Youth' of today would more likely appreciate a Museum dedicated to their trials and tribulations in the Service of their Country, at home and abroad.   Even the Scout, Guide and Boys and Girls Club movements are falling into obscurity.   Instead, we get the rejuvination of Katimavik.    :

 

[Michael Dorosh]

Only a significant change in the National Government will change the plan to denigrate this
country's commendable record in all the wars and peacekeeping/peace enforecment operations.
MacLeod

Wow, that's right up there with the Kennedy Assassination.

So, how much time and money have you donated to the CWM - or a local museum?  I would say our fate is in our own hands.  Like most Canadians, we have little interest in saving our own skins.

 

[OLD F of S]

        Just read the Toronto sun Worthington's article, we now know that 417 soldiers
contracted VD in the Korean war. Just somthing every visitor should know whe visiting theCWM.

          It just gets more annoying each day.


                                  Regards OLD F of S

 

[Michael Dorosh]

         Just read the Toronto sun Worthington's article, we now know that 417 soldiers
contracted VD in the Korean war. Just somthing every visitor should know whe visiting theCWM.

           It just gets more annoying each day.


                                   Regards OLD F of S

So let's take action.   Or do we just want to moan about it on the internet?

Send me something interesting to post on my website at www.canadiansoldiers.com - a photo essay, or some letters home from a soldier.   Our history is just that - ours - and its our to either preserve - or to lose.   Wringing hands and complaining about how the federal government isn't doing it for us doesn't wash.   There are dozens of publishers out there doing great stuff with Canadian military subjects; I was at the post office and noticed a whole series of books on VE Day.

Did anyone buy any of them?

How many people here have paypalled Mike Bobbitt and helped subsidize this sounding board for Canadian military culture?

Why expect the Government to preserve our values for us?  I don't buy into the interpretation that they are actively destroying it.  They don't understand it.  Are probably frightened a bit by it.  Seeing the almost-violent reactions by some posters here, I can't say I blame them.

Get involved.  Write letters.  Pouting and sulking aren't the answer.

 

[Danjanou]

         Just read the Toronto sun Worthington's article, we now know that 417 soldiers
contracted VD in the Korean war. Just somthing every visitor should know whe visiting theCWM.

           It just gets more annoying each day.


                                   Regards OLD F of S

Actually it was 414 per 1000 Canadian Soldiers suffered/contracted VD during the Korean War. What appears (and rightly so) to have Mr. Worthington's back up re this little bit of statistical trivia is the manner in which it is presented, misleading (deliberately so?) and out of context.

The way it is presented it seems that some 41% of the troops over there got he clap. In fact the stat is for total cases reported/treated and includes repeat offenders, which I would presume counted for a large number of the total number.  The way it reads, to paraphrase Worthington, suggests that 10 guys got it instead of one guy 10 times.

I have to ask my old class mate Dean Oliver, the museum's Historian how the hell he ever got through Dr Fisher's statistical history course(s) back at MUN. Right before I take him off my Christmas Card list.

http://torontosun.canoe.ca/News/Columnists/Worthington_Peter/2005/05/17/1043248.html

 

[a_majoor]

Just a quick interjection of "interpretation". While you and I might have differences of opinion about certain events, there are certain fundamentals which have to be observed. Factual evidence is paramount, making stuff up will not do (i.e. Tess' Illtis in "Bosnia" or the diorama of the Irish Bde storming the Halifax Citadel).

Even as far as interpretation, there need to be certain boundaries drawn. Context needs to be given for the events being portrayed; i.e. Canadian soldiers fought against Bolshevik Russia in 1918, National Socialist Germany 1939-45, Korea and the Cold War since we felt that Socialism was an evil which must be stopped, by force of arms if necessary. Expansionist Socialism was quite willing to spread through the use of armed force, so defensive measures were certainly necessary.

Since we notionally control these Museums through our tax dollars, a concentrated campaign of aggressively fact checking exhibits and publicly pointing out errors (to the staff on the spot, letters to the Museum director, letters to the editor and to your MP) will certainly put the pressure on. A parallel campaign to promote our own Regimental Museums and even put them "on tour" (travelling exhibits and veteran staff to explain the historical context) will also provide us a means to outflank the Museum of Civilization staff weenies, who I suspect have never faced opposition and will have no idea of how to respond.

Lets get out there people!

Arthur

 

[Art Johnson]

Yet another slap in the face by those weenies in Ottawa.

 

[George Wallace]

Art

Is there a Square Inch of the new CWM that you haven't Photographed?  ;D

 

[KevinB]

Well at least we know the boys in Korea got some action  ;D

Why we saved that for display... :

 

[Michael Dorosh]

Well at least we know the boys in Korea got some action   ;D

Why we saved that for display... :

I wonder how many cases were actually contracted in Japan, or brought from home...

It is a bit depressing that our Betsy - an anti-tank gun with a long history - sits rusting out on flat tires in the basement without even a placard to identify her, while stuff like that goes up on the walls.

Arthur's post is brilliant.  I guess it is time to write a letter to the CWM for all the good it might do.

If anybody wanted to write an in-depth, even-handed review of the new museum for my site, I'd be interested in posting it.

 

[jmacleod]

It happens that my associates and I and consultants who have worked with us know a great deal
about Museums. A Museum is not a "memorial" - it is a living testimonial to the activities of real
persons, Regiments, Squadrons, Ships and others who have contributed in a definative and significant
way to the actual history of real events of a period of time, defined as "war time" or, in the case
of post World War II and Korean War activities, peace keeping ( a political term). There are events
in Canadian military history that we are very familier with, which should not be commemorated in
a public forrum; for instance the famous "sit down strike" in 6 Bomber Group RCAF England. There
are others, but they are not significant in a military Museum. What is significant is that this country
provided hundreds of thousands of volunteers, who created the third largest allied Air Force, one
of the great fighting armies of World War II and Korea, and a Navy described by the Royal Navy
as the difference in victory over the German U-Boats in the North Atlantic. What we are concerned
with, what Journalist Peter Worthington and Mr. Clifford Chadderton are concerned with is that the
truly magnificant contribution made by Canada, in the world of 1939 to 1945 will be trivialized by
young, ignorant bureaucrats with no empathy for the Canadian military. The ignorance expressed by
graduates of the many Universities we deal with on a professional basis of the Canadian military is
truly, repeat, truly appalling. We must ensure that the Canadian War Museum be part of Canada's
military establishment, which my family and associates are particularly proud of. MacLeod

 

[Michael Dorosh]

I can agree with all that; arguing that a government conspiracy exists, however, weakens your otherwise good points. 

There are many other facets of Canadian military history that are not exactly proud moments; if presented in the proper context, they can be illuminating.  Our own regimental museum commemorates the Japanese-Canadians who served bravely in WW I, while also acknowledging the internment of same in WW II.

Mentioning VD on its own isn't on; as part of a larger display devoted to service conditions, discipline and other "what it was like to be there" stuff, it may possibly be more appropriate. I personally wouldn't devote any space in a museum display to it, especially not a supposedly family-friendly museum. 

It's enticing to think such a conspiracy exists; even if it did, we would be well advised, I think, not to acknowledge it but simply soldier on - as we always have done - and where possible take appropriate actions to keep our history in the forefront.  Partners in Motion and their film on the VC winners is a good start.

 

[jmacleod]

Thanks for your input. I do not think there is a "government conspiracy", frankly having dealt with
Federal bureaucrats for several decades, I think that the politicians are unaware of of the perspectives
and motivations of the "bureaucrats" from the Museum of Civilization, certainly the Hon. Barnett
Danson late Queen's Own Rifles of Canada is unaware, and former Defence Minister Danson, well
known to us, would be surprised and concerned about the "agenda" - but there is an agenda.
A military Museum should be totally controlled by the Canadian military establishment. The British
model is one option, the United States model , another. Providing our history of military activities,
defined in many, many historic narratives, in a public forum, should not be subject to "interpretation"
by a recent graduate of Carleton or, God preserve us, George Williams University or the CBC. Friend
and author Tony Foster (son of Major General Harry Foster OBE, DSO) authorr of "A Meeting of Generals", one of the great Canadian books about World War II have often discussed the roles
of Canadian museums in the public forum. In the case of the CWM, Foster would use a number of
expletives, not necessarily acceptable on the more or less, public site. MacLeod
,

 

[Michael Dorosh]

Thanks for your input. I do not think there is a "government conspiracy", frankly having dealt with
Federal bureaucrats for several decades, I think that the politicians are unaware of of the perspectives
and motivations of the "bureaucrats" from the Museum of Civilization, certainly the Hon. Barnett
Danson late Queen's Own Rifles of Canada is unaware, and former Defence Minister Danson, well
known to us, would be surprised and concerned about the "agenda" - but there is an agenda.
A military Museum should be totally controlled by the Canadian military establishment. The British
model is one option, the United States model , another. Providing our history of military activities,
defined in many, many historic narratives, in a public forum, should not be subject to "interpretation"
by a recent graduate of Carleton or, God preserve us, George Williams University or the CBC. Friend
and author Tony Foster (son of Major General Harry Foster OBE, DSO) authorr of "A Meeting of Generals", one of the great Canadian books about World War II have often discussed the roles
of Canadian museums in the public forum. In the case of the CWM, Foster would use a number of
expletives, not necessarily acceptable on the more or less, public site. MacLeod
,

I wonder how that agenda made its way into official policy....and at what point the military lost control?  Power vacuums are anathema in Canada - I am guessing someone dropped the ball, and "they" managed to slide into control?

I look at the writing of the official history of WW I as an example - it took decades to do.  The RCAF and RCN story of WW II I think took even longer IIRC - like 40 years or so?

 

[George Wallace]

I wonder how that agenda made its way into official policy....and at what point the military lost control?   Power vacuums are anathema in Canada - I am guessing someone dropped the ball, and "they" managed to slide into control?

I look at the writing of the official history of WW I as an example - it took decades to do.   The RCAF and RCN story of WW II I think took even longer IIRC - like 40 years or so?

It wasn't a difficult move in that direction.  Even CF Museums are run, for the most part, by non-military trained professionals educated in our University and College Systems.  Having worked in one such Museum and being a member of the OMMC, I have witnessed the consternation of those who truly try to preserve our Military History and Traditions.  They are frustrated by people in positions of power who have no concepts of Military Life and at the same time by the apathy shown to them by the hierarchy in NDHQ.  We do have some very fine Military Museums in Canada.  They are the result in the main part to the hard work of Military and Ex-military volunteers who have done fund raising, construction of displays, electrical work, tour guide, preservation of everything from documents to aircraft, and an endless list of other jobs large and small.  Every one of these museums has the same problems in funding, visitation, local and national support and many more to include the general apathy of the local military establishments. 

Congratulations should go out to all the people who have contributed so much to the preservation of our Military Heritage.  Many of them are doing the job, with little or no credit.  Take the time to visit some of these Museums.  They don't all rival the CWM, although some like the Museum of the Regiments, in Calgary, do.

 

[jmacleod]

Reply to George Wallace: Agreed. HMCS Sackville, the restored Town Class Corvette was created
by volunteers and the veterans of the RCN/RCNVR - with generous private sector contribitions -the
Canadian Warplane Heritage Museum, Mount Hope ON, was created the same way, with generous
contributions from the the Government of Ontario, and the Federal Government thanks to the Hon
Sheila Copps MP and Stelco, plus many, many others. The RCN RCNVR veterans who were responsible
for the expensive and compelling restoration of HMCS Sackville used the same process we advocated
to them used on behalf of CWHF, Mount Hope (tax credits for donations, etc).Our original plan in
Halifax was to restore a RCN Frigate and a long range German UBoat - the UBoat concept took to us
to Kiel Germany and the Frigate to London and Portsmouth UK. I remember as a 15 year old, the
German UBoats which surrendred in Halifax in 1945 - arrogant bastards, who lined seaman up on
their foredecks, is if they were visiting the port on a peacetime exercise. We want the military to
totally control the Canadian War Museum, the only way the facility will survive in an acceptable
manner. MacLeod

 

[Michael Dorosh]

I would replace "military" with the phrase "military community" and then I would be in total agreement.

It's what I've said all along - why expect the government to do the right thing?

I've toyed with the fantasy of having government funding for my own website at canadiansoldiers.com - but after talking to the chap who runs Maple Leaf Up many years ago, he convinced me that govnerment control would only cheapen things and take away from the final product.

The military community - which includes re-enactors, collectors, artists, veterans, actors, relatives - needs to look after its own, and gets larger and more commited with each year.  The MOTR is a good example - I am thinking of the Soldiers of the Two Millenium event every summer, put on almost entirely by volunteers with some corporate sponsorship. 

Let Shell or Scotiabank fund military museums; leave the work in the hands of dedicated volunteers or staff with the experience to do the job.

 

[jmacleod]

Reply to Michael: Agreed, you are right, the term "military establishment" has a certain ring to
it and implies absolute integrity. I think Worthington, and Chadderton and all of us who are
concerned, or who have expressed concern should form a common objective. Once the
political situation in Ottawa is resolved, we must communicate with the MND and the MVA
Canada. My personal opinion is that the Liberal's will form the next government, but I may be
wrong - but hopefully we will deal with Federal ministers who will communicate and provide
some empathy - certainly Arthur Eggleton MP would be supportive, a much better MND than
the media recognized. In any event, the CWM is too important to our country to be sluffed
off by the granola crowd. I was talking to my three smart professional woman, well educated,
high profile daughters today, who are not tuned into the military, and they wanted to know
about their family's military history, never discussed earlier to any extent - they were fascinated
- it occurred to me that this is the key to change; young Canadians who should (and must) be
made familier with our great military traditions - MacLeod

 

[Michael Dorosh]

I was talking to my three smart professional woman, well educated, high profile daughters today,

Can I PM you my phone number?

 

[Art Johnson]

Hey Tess, I see that your story made the latest issue of Espirit de Corps via the 48th Museum, along with a fine painting of the action. Was this set up by Anthony?