USS John S. McCain Collision 20 Aug 17

[SeaKingTacco]

Forgive me for my ignorance on all things sailing but...wouldn't there always be SA on all ships/aircraft etc in a bubble around you?  Having never sailed before except as a ferry passenger, I am trying to understand how a collision like this happens in a shipping lane;  I am assuming that there are lanes, speeds etc that are (should be) adhered to and that warships maintain SA on all vessels around them, particularly ones that are in close.

Hoping the find the 10 missing sailors alive. 

The Straits of Malacca are "special". I have been through there 3 times and it is eye watering. Imagine an 8 lane super highway, except with no lines and filled with everything from 100,000 tonne super tankers down to 500 tonne coastal freighters. Ships are doing anywhere from 10-30 kts. It would not be unusual to have 100 plus contacts within 10NM of your ship. Your ship is completely surrounded. If you have an engineering casualty, you will be extremely lucky to get out of it without being hit. As aircrew, I was impressed by the ability of our bridge and ops teams to manage it. I am not sure we still have those skills today in our Navy- and we are light years ahead of the USN at training ship drivers.

Add darkness or bad weather and it would be even scarier.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

I'm not sure how the USN does this, so I'm just going by my (limited) experience on our ships.  If it was just the Officer of the Deck (Watch) and s/he noticed something wrong that was outside the arcs of what the CO had written down that the OOW can do on their own, s/he has to report a contact report to the CO, which could be about 30 seconds long *if* all the info was readily available - if not, it can be minutes long.  Then, the CO says "do xyz" and the OOW tells the Helmsman/Throttleman/whoever to do so.  Say that takes a few minutes, but the CO usually says "don't call unless another ship CPA is xyz distance".

This is if the OOW noticed it first.  If it was the Lookout, for example, s/he would have a contact report much like the AESOP radar one to the OOW, which starts the chain.  Same if Radar notices it first, then it'd be a call up to the bridge to the OOW, etc.  Needless to say, it takes a little while to get something done compared to an aircraft unless it was in an emergency, then it's "beg for forgiveness later". 

I may have said this before, but the report on how it went down on the DDG's bridge will be interesting if nothing else.

Copy that, tks!

 

[Eye In The Sky]

The Straits of Malacca are "special". I have been through there 3 times and it is eye watering. Imagine an 8 lane super highway, except with no lines and filled with everything from 100,000 tonne super tankers down to 500 tonne coastal freighters. Ships are doing anywhere from 10-30 kts. It would not be unusual to have 100 plus contacts within 10NM of your ship. Your ship is completely surrounded. If you have an engineering casualty, you will be extremely lucky to get out of it without being hit. As aircrew, I was impressed by the ability of our bridge and ops teams to manage it. I am not sure we still have those skills today in our Navy- and we are light years ahead of the USN at training ship drivers.

Add darkness or bad weather and it would be even scarier.

Roger that...I don't think I've ever seen anything that congested on sensors or with my eyes.  100+ tracks...crazy.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

As an addendum to my previous comment, I have seen some discussion about the over-reliance on auto-track systems. That stuff is fine (normally), but the operator has to really understand the how the software works and has to know when to go raw radar from skin paints- and track the old fashioned way (I'm not even sure that is still taught...).

You can get yourself in a real jackpot in a real hurry using an auto tracker in a high density, low Doppler environment...

 

[Eye In The Sky]

That part, I can relate to completely.  Being a Blk II guy, then CTd to Blk III, and now seeing our new Blk III only junior operators, there is a difference in abilities and more *assuming* the SW is and will work properly.  And, with the multitude of setting now on something like just RADAR, it is much easier for them to make a single mistake that has the potential for huge consequences.

 

[MARS]

As an addendum to my previous comment, I have seen some discussion about the over-reliance on auto-track systems. That stuff is fine (normally), but the operator has to really understand the how the software works and has to know when to go raw radar from skin paints- and track the old fashioned way (I'm not even sure that is still taught...).

You can get yourself in a real jackpot in a real hurry using an auto tracker in a high density, low Doppler environment...

Another trend I noticed in my last ship was a tendency to leave the radar system in 'true motion' - that is, the course/speed vector was displaying the other vessel's true course and speed.  I was quite surprised that I had to prompt my Officers of the Watch to switch to 'relative motion'.  The true motion vectors let you see what direction the other ship is pointing, but don't give you any indication if there is a risk of collision. but switching to relative motion enables the OOW to determine much more quickly which ships are actually going to collide with you (or at least have close CPAs, because their vector will run through, or close to the centre of the screen, which is your 'own ship' position). It is a bit of an oversimplification, but it certainly helps to identify a priority contact.

I came up on old, old, old radar systems that didn't have ARPA and were only in relative motion, so that was the norm for me.  I run in Relative when I am on the Bridge and switch to True frequently, but Relative motion is my default.  I can only speak for my ship and two others, but the other Captains I spoke with reported the same trend...didn't make sense to us in terms of getting the 'best' picture....maybe that was a factor here, maybe not, especially if there was on over-reliance on systems, and particularly the auto-track feature.

 

[Good2Golf]

MARS, that would certainly be useful not only on the sea. People ask how could a mid-air collision happen?  Visually, any other aircraft on a collision course with yours doesn't mover relative in the windscreen, it just grows larger at a slow but exponential rate. Small speck, small speck, small speck, hunh?, Holy crap!  Conceptually I could see the same principle in play - visually (not with MARS' relative-mode radar, of course) - and given momentum of things that weigh thousands of tons, could see that a small period of i attention could snowball into a major event.

Regards
G2G

 

[FSTO]

I seem to recall the last time I went through the straits of Malacca the CO or XO were on the bridge for most of the passage and we had modified specials closed up for the real busy parts. Parts of it reminded me of Naples during rush hour. 

 

[tomahawk6]

USNI has a nice article concerning OPTEMPO of ships assigned to the Pacific Fleet.This has affected training and maintenance.

https://news.usni.org/2017/08/21/chain-incidents-involving-u-s-navy-warships-western-pacific-raise-readinesstraining-questions

 

[FJAG]

Back to the mariners amongst us: it looks like - with a clear bulbous bow impression in the port side of the McCain - that the McCain must have been crossing in front of the tanker from right to left and thus had the right-of-way (although stopping a tanker on a dime is impractical)

Seems the circumstances here might be quite different from the Fitzgerald.

Thoughts

:cheers:

 

[MARS]

CNN was reporting that McCain suffered a loss of steering, and then were unable to employ their secondary steering systems.  No other details.

If they were both following the traffic flow, likely in close-ish quarters, one ahead of the other, a steering failure could quite easily result in MCain's bow falling off to port and her getting struck by the other ship. 

*I have never sailed the Straits in question, nor even looked at a chart of the area yet, so it is pure, back of a napkin speculation on my part and should be taken as such.*

 

[jollyjacktar]

But steering failure can happen, as suffered between Preserver and Penelope.  Just like on a major highway at rush hour, if you suddenly cross traffic, you might get t-boned.  I suppose its not beyond the realms of possibilities.  (here's hoping for some good news on the missing)

 

[Stoker]

CNN was reporting that McCain suffered a loss of steering, and then were unable to employ their secondary steering systems.  No other details.

If they were both following the traffic flow, likely in close-ish quarters, one ahead of the other, a steering failure could quite easily result in MCain's bow falling off to port and her getting struck by the other ship. 

*I have never sailed the Straits in question, nor even looked at a chart of the area yet, so it is pure, back of a napkin speculation on my part and should be taken as such.*

A loss of steering could ruin your whole day, eh Captain 8)

 

[FSTO]

Just looked at the AIS video of the incident. McCain was being overtaken by the tanker that struck her. Looks like there was another ship that snuck between the McCain and the Tanker and that may have caused the confusion. In the end McCain would have been the stand on vessel and it was the responsibility of the overtaking vessel to keep clear.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vlrA36GzHNs&feature=youtu.be

It is very busy out there and you have to be on your toes as the officer of the watch.

 

[Journeyman]

Quote from: MARS on Today at 21:23:25

A loss of steering could ruin your whole day, eh Captain 8)

Now that  sounds like an insider-info story in need of telling...... 

ps - serious note; thank you for the input from people actually familiar with such things.  :nod:

 

[MARS]

A loss of steering could ruin your whole day, eh Captain 8)

It was a close run thing.  It would have been a bad day if not for your quick reaction and that of your team, Chief 

 

[tomahawk6]

Divers have recovered some of the missing from flooded compartments.The Malaysian Navy has recovered a body from the ocean.

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2017/08/22/remains-navy-sailors-found-on-uss-john-s-mccain.html

Remains of some of the Navy sailors who went missing after a collision between USS John S. McCain and a tanker near Singapore were found in a compartment aboard the destroyer, Commander of the U.S. Pacific Fleet Adm. Scott Swift said Tuesday.

A "number" of bodies were found on the Navy destroyer and one body was located by Malaysia, Swift said.

 

[tomahawk6]

It was a close run thing.  It would have been a bad day if not for your quick reaction and that of your team, Chief 

Unnamed sources are saying the McCain suffered a steering failure.You guys are good.

http://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/warship-uss-john-s-mccain-suffered-a-steering-failure-near-collision-site-reports-cnn

 

[FSTO]

Unnamed sources are saying the McCain suffered a steering failure.You guys are good.

http://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/warship-uss-john-s-mccain-suffered-a-steering-failure-near-collision-site-reports-cnn

If you notice it quick enough you can steer by engines and maintain a steady heading while your steering gear breakdown team gets into action. I have noticed that far too many times, young BWK's do not think about slowing down a bit to gain control.

Thinking about the McCain and the AIS picture, the steering gear issue makes sense now. The tanker in question was likely overtaking McCain on McCain's port side and if the steering casualty caused the ship to veer to port that would explain the way the ship's hull was pierced and shoved inward towards the stbd quarter. If that was where the accommodations were those poor folks in their bunks didn't have a chance.

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

MARS and FSTO have nailed it, I think. Anything that goes wrong in tight quarters can ruin your day in a hurry.

And MARS, for the sake of comparison: for the strait of Mallaca, think English Channel with about 150% traffic.

And JJT, the PENELOPE incident was not a steering failure. It was an engine telegraph failure. In the steamers, there is is no direct bridge control. All engine orders are effected by the engineers blindly based on orders transmitted through mechanical telegraphs. In PENELOPE, the outboard engine telegraph failed and got stuck indicating full ahead and was obeyed by the engineers. So she both veered into PRESERVER and surged ahead at the same time.

BTW, one of the things that saved PENELOPE from a watery grave is that PRESERVER did not have a bulbous bow. PENELOPE was rolled over, some metal was crushed - but she did not become opened to the sea (which was great as the hit was at the engine room compartment level). To me that fact militates in favour of all naval replenishment vessels never being  equipped with bulbous bows regardless of the hydrodynamics advantages and fuel savings.

Meanwhile, we should all keep praying for the missing seamen.