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US Election: 2016

There must be two Hillary Clintons.  One is as advertised by her supporters - a first-class brain, a policy wonk, extensive experience in government, qualified for the office of president by virtue of her deep knowledge of policy, governance, and the workings of the US government.

The other one - some sort of doppelganger - is apparently too stupid to master basic information security, despite time on the Senate Armed Services Committee and as Secretary of State, and is therefore to be excused for all lapses and deliberate evasions of policy and regulations.  Nevertheless, this one is also, apparently, eminently qualified to be US president.
 
How's that election thingy going in the US?  Have they had their vote yet?
 
Chris Pook said:
How's that election thingy going in the US?  Have they had their vote yet?

Yep. They decided that it was too risky to go with the candidates so we now have the first three term president since FDR. ;D
 
cupper said:
They decided that it was too risky to go with the candidates so we now have the first three term president since FDR. ;D

Pretty sad state of affairs when the IAFF refuses to endorse either one of them.
 

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cupper said:
Yep. They decided that it was too risky to go with the candidates so we now have the first three term president since FDR. ;D

Right about now I figure they must be about ready to turn the whole decision over to Simon Cowell....
 
Maybe one day,say in a year we can compare the chief executives of the US and Canada.My money is on Trump.
 
tomahawk6 said:
Maybe one day,say in a year we can compare the chief executives of the US and Canada.My money is on Trump.

Aw, C'mon! Now you're not playing fair!  ;D
 
Brad Sallows said:
There must be two Hillary Clintons.  One is as advertised by her supporters - a first-class brain, a policy wonk, extensive experience in government, qualified for the office of president by virtue of her deep knowledge of policy, governance, and the workings of the US government.

The other one - some sort of doppelganger - is apparently too stupid to master basic information security, despite time on the Senate Armed Services Committee and as Secretary of State, and is therefore to be excused for all lapses and deliberate evasions of policy and regulations.  Nevertheless, this one is also, apparently, eminently qualified to be US president.

Again, I don't want to sound like a Hillary apologist but I can see how she got where she did with this server stuff.

In my last job before I retired I was on a three year class B to build a new Information Management system for the JAG. Part of that was a records management system. In order to do that I had to get myself completely up on the Archives Act and all of the various government and DND requirements for records management; review how it was currently being dealt with in JAG, produce a technological solution and produce a business transformation plan to implement it.

Long story short the record management processes that existed and the existing expertise in using it was very often sub standard to the point of being contrary to many of the laws and regulations. When you consider that the typical JAG users were all well educated officers and support staff it would not be surprising that in other branches of DND the records management system is being even less well implemented.

As an example, not every scrap of paper or email has to be retained. Transitory records can be destroyed when no longer of use and even corporate records can and should be destroyed in accordance with record destruction authorities such as the DSCDS. Very few people that I have come in contact with have any proper understanding of records management and especially records destruction. Of those that do, few have a complete understanding (This is primarily because the DSCDS itself is a piece of crap and secondly because we have almost completely destroyed the records management trade field in the military. As a result a very large percentage of the records submitted for archiving should have been destroyed long ago (That's mostly because none of us have the time to strip and cross strip files properly before closing them).

I doubt if anyone at the minister level in our government (which is a political and not public service appointment) has any understanding of the details respecting records management. They look to their subordinates to create and manage a workable and legal system. All too often, at that level, things work too loosely in order to meet the job requirements.

In the end, hindsight is 20/20. The whole thing with Hillary should have worked better than it did and the right advice was either absent or not forcefully advocated.

Again, not an apology but an attempt at understanding.  :pop:

:cheers:
 
You did all that on government systems, yes? There's a complete difference between running afoul of the Archives Act on a DND system, than having Confidential emails delivered to a private email server running on your basement.
 
If the issue was ignorance of the fine points of information management in the computer age, I'd cut her some slack.

She claims ignorance of the basic principles of security classifications - stuff that can be taught in one 40-minute lecture.
 
PuckChaser said:
You did all that on government systems, yes? There's a complete difference between running afoul of the Archives Act on a DND system, than having Confidential emails delivered to a private email server running on your basement.

True enough. The trouble with JAG was that there were only two systems available at the time which was the basic Protected A system and the very restricted user Classified  system (up to Secret Tempest). Most of JAG's work is Protected B Solicitor Client Privilege and we needed to and did build a Protected B system that had ADM(IM) certification and which ran on the back of the DWAN.

It is not, and was not then, impossible to build a system that can handle classified material. In 2008 we had and did used USB sticks rated to Secret (but which we were only authorised to use to Protected B.) 

My point is that there are two issues being touted: destruction of emails; and some emails sent containing information that may or was classified.

My point really addressed the first issue where I understand by far most of the material that she sent through her "personal" system ended up with recipients who's emails were being retained in other government systems and thus were duplicates of otherwise maintained corporate records or basically transitory records.

As to the second issue I agree with you. Under the then existing systems, classified data ought not to have gone through her "personal" system albeit my understanding is that she believed she was not transmitting classified data. The FBI report states out of some 30,000 emails there were 110 emails in 52 email chains that included classified information. By that it appears to me that she may not have been the originator of the classified information but merely a recipient along the chain. (A further 2000 or so which were sent or received as unclassified were later up-classified as Confidential)

Obviously even one is too many but I maintain my position that the issue here is a failing within the Dept of State. The office of the Secretary is run as a separate entity within the Dept of State but nonetheless it should be up to the Department to ensure that the Secretary has a compliant system. Hillary wasn't the first Secretary of State just the first to make significant use of email. Email wasn't born the day that Clinton took office. State should have had a well functioning system long before that.

I do agree with the principle of ministerial responsibility but there's a limit when the failure is one where the minister inherits a faulty system and isn't advised on how to fix it. My guess is that if you went through the email systems of the Republican senators and congressmen who have no launched the upteenth investigation and are calling for the FBI director's head for not charging her then you would find a cornucopia of misuse even more egregious then hers.

One needs to keep some perspective when one looks at these things.

:cheers:
 
Brad Sallows said:
If the issue was ignorance of the fine points of information management in the computer age, I'd cut her some slack.

She claims ignorance of the basic principles of security classifications - stuff that can be taught in one 40-minute lecture.

I'll make it even faster. These are the meanings of the various classifications:

Protected - Unauthorized disclosure could reasonably be expected to cause injury to a non-national interest; that is, an individual interest such as a person or an organization.

Protected A - Injury to an individual, organization or government.

Protected B - Serious injury to an individual, organization or government.

Protected C - Extremely grave injury to an individual, organization or government.

Classified - Unauthorized disclosure could reasonably be expected to cause injury to the national interest – defence and maintenance of the social, political and economic stability of Canada.

Confidential - Injury to the national interest.

Secret - Serious injury to the national interest

Top Secret - Exceptionally grave injury to the national interest

Easy words to say; very difficult words to apply and interpret in the circumstances. There have been volumes of law books written trying to parse the precise meaning behind such subjective terms as "serious injury" and "exceptionally grave injury" and "gross negligence" etc etc. On top of that all too often information is overclassified simply based on a principle of risk aversion.

Like I said before, I don't want to be a Clinton apologist but I've seen thousands of email strings that went through my system to which I paid little attention as they involved me only peripherally. I doubt whether I would have noticed if anything was misclassified amongst the info. I try, whenever possible, not to rush to judgement especially when I see others making, what appear to me to be, mountains out of molehills. If that isn't enough of an allegory/parable then take this one: Let him who is without sin cast the first stone -- not so fast Trump!!!  ;D

:cheers:
 
So what is the Clinton Foundation, exactly?

https://www.currentaffairs.org/2016/08/the-clinton-foundations-problems-are-deeper-than

THE CLINTON FOUNDATION’S PROBLEMS ARE DEEPER THAN YOU THINK
Critical scrutiny has focused on the Foundation’s fundraising. But there are equally troubling questions about its actual work.
by NATHAN J. ROBINSON

In recent days, large amounts of criticism have been directed at the Clinton Foundation over its fundraising methods, and purported ethical conflicts of interest arising out of Hillary Clinton’s tenure as Secretary of State. Stated most strongly, the allegation is that Clinton’s position as Secretary helped her squeeze foreign governments for Foundation donations, and access to the State Department was sold to the highest bidder. And while “pay to play” charges remain unconfirmed, it’s certain that the Foundation raised money from foreign governments in ways that present a troubling ethical problem for a likely future president.

Democrats have vigorously defended Clinton and the Foundation. Supportive journalists have insisted the story amounts to nothing, and Donna Brazile has objected to the tendency of journalists to treat “normal behavior” (like granting special access for large donors) as somehow worthy of disapprobation. Some have cited this as an example of what they call the “Clinton Rules,” whereby behavior that is engaged in routinely by other politicians is treated as uniquely pathological when done by the Clintons.

One major reason that the “pay-for-play” story has failed to stick, then, is that many people simply don’t see what the big deal is. Sure, Clinton may have collected Foundation donations from human rights violators across the planet. And sure, giving large donations to the Foundation may have made it easier to secure a meeting with a Clinton. But, it is said, since these were charitable donations to a foundation that does a lot of good work, what’s the harm?

It is almost a requirement that any criticism of the Clinton Foundation be followed immediately by a qualification about how much Good Work it does. Even Glenn Greenwald has said that it is “beyond dispute” that the Foundation does a great deal of good work. (Instead, Greenwald points out how likely it is that Saudi Arabia donated to the Foundation in the belief doing so would confer favor, rather than because the Kingdom felt an intense commitment to the Foundation’s stated goals of empowering women and improving LGBT rights.) James Carville has said that “somebody is going to hell” for criticizing the fundraising practices of such a worthy organization (Carville’s remark echoes previous comments by Madeleine Albright that Bernie-supporting women belong in hell; “Our opponents will burn in hell” is evidently becoming the unofficial Clinton campaign motto.)

But critics of the Clinton Foundation may want to think twice before casually paying tribute to the organization’s tremendous good work. Most of the claims about the Foundation’s efficacy have little basis in any actual reported facts. Instead, it is simply assumed that the organization has tremendous humanitarian accomplishments, without any serious inquiry into what these are. An examination of the actual available evidence, as opposed to the PR claims of the Foundation and its boosters, suggests the need for far greater skepticism about the organization’s charitable acts in addition to its fundraising.

First, the Clinton Foundation is a strange type of “charity” to begin with. The New York Times has described the Foundation as “more a nonprofit global consulting firm than a traditional philanthropy.” Contrary to James Carville’s claim that the Foundation is “taking money from rich people and giving it to poor people,” its primary mission, says the Times, is “not to provide direct humanitarian aid.” Instead it “is known for sending bright but inexperienced recent graduates to work as technical advisers to government ministries.”

Ira Magaziner, who heads the independent Clinton Health Access Initiative, has said of their work that “the whole thing is bankable… It’s a commercial proposition. This is not charity.” Instead of aid, the Clinton Foundation spends much of its effort “creating new markets,” finding lucrative investment opportunities in the developing world for Western private capital. These have included everything from “using business methods to streamline fertilizer markets in Africa” to “working with credit card companies to expand the volume of low-cost loans offered to poor inner city residents.” (Note that typically, enticing poor people into taking on large amounts of credit card debt is not among the activities of a charitable foundation.) Bill Clinton is open about the fact that in this work, he is trying to help corporations profit from the developing world. He attempts to “reinvent philanthropy” as a lucrative enterprise for his partners because, in his words, “I think it’s wrong to ask anyone to lose money.”

It’s hard to keep track of all the “commercial propositions” the Foundation is engaged in, because it operates in a highly unusual fashion. Ordinarily, charitable foundations make grants to outside organizations. But only 15% of the Clinton Foundation’s spending is on charitable grants. Instead, it spends most of its money on its in-house programs, whose efficacy can be far more difficult to track. The task is made even more difficult thanks to the Foundation’s ongoing allergy to transparency.

Partly because of that, Charity Navigator, a watchdog group, at one point added the Clinton Foundation to its watch list of problematic charities, and for many years did not rate the organization at all because its “atypical business model. . . doesn’t meet our criteria.” The Clinton Health Access Initiative has refused to allow the charity evaluation organization GiveWell to analyze its outcomes, and the Better Business Bureau has listed the Clinton Foundation as failing to meet the basic standards for reporting the effectiveness of its programs. Bill Allison of the pro-transparency Sunlight Foundation has gone much further, and said that the organization operates as a “slush fund for the Clintons.”

Indeed, certain Foundation expenditures have appeared unduly lavish, and difficult to justify. The Foundation spends $8 million in annual travel expenses (the Clintons fly on private jets), bought a first-class plane ticket to bring Natalie Portman (and her prized Yorkie) to an event, and funds a “glitzy annual gathering of chief executives, heads of state, and celebrities.” Some costs are outsourced to others, and universities that invite Bill Clinton to speak can find themselves hit with unexpected invoices for $1,400 hotel phone bills and $700 dinners-for-two.

The annual summit of the Clinton Global Initiative has become, according to some, particularly unseemly. NPR’s Adam Davidson, who has moderated panels at the CGI, has professed a skepticism of how much good is actually done, suggesting that the Foundation offers a “theater” of charity without the actual results:

There is a real creepy vibe there. It’s all about buying access. It’s incredibly expensive. It costs hundreds of thousands to go, and you meet all these people selling their private equity start-ups. You spend more money to get more access. There is this creepy theater that happens where you have a big CEO up there with President Clinton bathing each other in love about how generous and wonderful they are and how much they care about the world…’ It feels like the worst version of an elite selling access to the aspirational, creating a theater of doing good, but it is all about something else. It really feels gross.

Davidson suggests that the CGI is the “performance of public charity, not actual intervention.” (He also points out that, even if the pay-to-play charges are baseless, it is thoroughly unwise for a presidential candidate to be “beholden to scumbags.” Since many human rights violators have given the Clinton Foundation large amounts of money, Clinton will assume the presidency owing favors to dictators.)

Davidson’s judgment is shared by others who have looked into the Foundation. Journalist Carol Felsenthal, who has extensively examined Bill Clinton’s post-presidency, suggests that he feels the need to appear to be involved in charity as part of a “striving for respectability” aimed at restoring his image after the public disgrace that marked his last years in office. Clinton, she says, has made no secret of the fact that with his Foundation work, he is “angling for the Nobel Peace Prize”; he is a person who “feeds off public acclaim,” and therefore needs a successful charity to helm. Indeed, the Foundation certainly brings Bill Clinton himself both luxury and adulation. Lawrence O’Donnell has offered a particularly acidic take on Clinton’s philanthropy:

It’s all self-glorifying. If we wanted to sit down and say ‘Let’s construct a path for glorification of Bill Clinton in a postpresidential environment,’ we could say ‘It would be great if he did a lot of good works in Africa.’ Look. My resistance to being impressed by Bill Clinton’s charitable work comes from his obvious, desperate desire for me to be impressed by it. And his extremely calculated desire for me to be impressed by it. This is a person as calculating about public image as exists in the world.

A publicity-oriented approach to charity has clear human consequences. In the Clinton case, we can see these in Haiti. After the devastating Haitian earthquake in 2010, both Clintons were heavily involved in the recovery. Bill was given such large and nebulous authority that Haitians dubbed him “Le Gouverneur,” fearing he would become a sort of colonial administrator. The Clintons raised millions of dollars, including 30 million dollars through the Foundation, to assist the Haitian people.

But all of this money produced very little. Multiple expensive initiatives went nowhere, and the gleaming new industrial park the Clintons touted for Haiti brought few jobs and was largely unused. Instead of housing, the Clinton-led recovery built needless new luxury hotels. Indeed, Adam Davidson reports that the Clinton Foundation is not a major force in Haiti, and is not making any significant progress there. Journalist Jonathan Katz says it’s “hard to find anyone who looks back on [the recovery] as a success.” The Clintons themselves have simply stopped discussing Haiti publicly, though Haitians have occasionally showed up at Hillary Clinton’s office to protest the disappearance of millions of dollars in recovery funds. As one Haitian official who worked with Bill Clinton put it, “There is a lot of resentment about Clinton here. People have not seen results. . . . They say that Clinton used Haiti.” (More details on the Haiti debacle can be found in Doug Henwood’s My Turn, as well as my own book on Bill Clinton.)

But what about the Foundation’s domestic programs? These constitute the bulk of its work; despite the Clinton Foundation’s prominent promotion of its “global” programs, only 1/3 of its spending is on initiatives outside the United States. But here, too, Foundation work seems to disproportionately spend on staff rather than actual aid. A commenter on Inside Philanthropy, who works in public health, explains how the Foundation attaches its name to community health initiatives without actually materially assisting them:

The Clinton Health Matters Initiative (CHMI) is a domestic community health program located within one city/county in 5 states. Businesses like GE and Humana write million dollar checks to the Clinton Foundation to support the implementation of these local initiatives, but none of the money actually goes toward the work. I attended the so-called “CHMI convening” in Houston, TX. The Foundation representatives held an all day meeting during which the participants were to develop a wish list to improve the community’s health. They said “don’t worry about the cost.” We thought this was great news: more community health resources. Everyone assumed that the Foundation and GE would be funding the work, which would produce community health jobs, but we later learned that the Foundation does not fund its own projects. It committed no budget, staff, or office space to develop the Initiative but hired merely one person, a regional director to oversee the work. The money that GE, the corporate partner, donated toward the Initiative went to the Foundation’s coffers, not the local projects…

Under the CHMI model, each health indicator is assigned 5 goals, totaling 45 that Foundation claims will be reached within a brief 5 year period. There is no way any organization can accomplish that many goals without adequate funding and staffing. The Clinton Foundation should be ashamed of misleading these communities into thinking that it will fund and support the implementation of this massive work.

The Clinton Foundation has a powerful name that most city governments and corporations want to be associated with, but how can it claim to be serious about community health when it doesn’t fund its own projects or give grants to existing local public health organizations? The Clinton Foundation exploit these communities to get corporations to write huge checks. Everyone gets excited that it’s coming to town. The corporation improves its brand through association. the Foundation improves its bottom line, but the community’s health gets short changed. It’s a hustle, a brilliant and legal one, but still a hustle.

As we read things like this, it may be tempting to conclude that the Clinton Foundation is little more than Potemkin philanthropy, a vast, wasteful, occasionally useful apparatus that exists largely to make Bill Clinton look good and help Bill Clinton’s friends find investment opportunities in Africa. But that would be slightly unfair. It’s not that the Clinton Foundation’s charitable works are fraudulent or nonexistent. It’s that it seems highly likely that they are not doing anywhere near the kind of good they insist they are. The Clinton Foundation and its offshoots are plagued by internal dysfunction, and one of its primary expenditures has been the massive Bill Clinton Presidential Library. It has spent increasing portions of its budget on salaries over the years, and decreasing portions on the distribution of low-cost pharmaceuticals.

We must consistently bear in mind the relevant metric: it is not whether the organization has good works it can point to, it is whether it is spending its money well. Asked to account for the the whereabouts of various dictators’ contributions to its operations, the Foundation may well point to a warehouse it built in Malawi. And indeed, all other things equal, it is better to have a warehouse than not to have one. But if one is working on a hundred-million dollar budget, building a warehouse may still amount to a gross squandering of funds.

Foundation defenders have been quick to point out that the organization spends most of its money on programs, as well as the A rating it received from CharityWatch. But this misses the crucial point; it’s not about the fact that you spend your money on programming, it’s what that programming actually does. Likewise, CharityWatch rating does not actually look at what’s relevant, namely what the organization has gotten for its money.

Clinton supporter David Corn points out that when we ask these questions of the Clinton Foundation, we find no obvious answers:

Has it mounted projects that have failed? We don’t know. Does it have a lot of highly paid staff? Yes, it does. But maybe that’s justifiable, if the results are strong enough… Still, rendering an ultimate verdict is tough. It’s a pity that, as is often the case with many nonprofits, the results of its high-minded efforts are not fully verified in a manner that could transcend agenda-driven political squabbling.

Of course, Corn assumes that the Clinton Foundation’s lack of transparency is a mere oversight, a bug rather than a feature. He does not consider the possibility that the Foundation’s failure to disclose the results of its work is because there are few results to disclose. Still, Corn’s article is worth reading. Here we have a strong supporter of Clinton making the best case for the Foundation’s impact. Corn clearly began with the intention of shifting the focus from the organization’s fundraising to its verifiable accomplishments. And yet despite his best efforts to defend the Foundation’s good work, he found it impossible to produce much in the way of measurable results.

The possibility that the Clinton Foundation fails to achieve much makes it even more objectionable that the organization has extracted money from smaller, less wealthy philanthropic groups, offering to have Bill Clinton speak at their fundraising events in exchange for their donating huge sums to the Clinton Foundation. The head of one small school-building charity, which tried to get Clinton to accept an award at its annual fundraiser, was told by Clinton Foundation that “they don’t look at these things unless money is offered, and it has to be $500,000.” If the Clinton Foundation is doing less with its money than comparable organizations, then by siphoning money from other charities, the Foundation is actually harming charitable efforts.

It is understandable that the Clinton Foundation’s fundraising practices have drawn the bulk of the scrutiny; after all, its good works are universally praised and the pay-to-play allegations raise serious ethical questions. But the Foundation is also suspiciously uninterested in explaining its actual accomplishments. Its most touted achievement, on AIDS drug pricing, comes from the separate Health Access Initiative and not the Foundation itself. And some of its work appears to consist of helping loan companies find new impoverished people to lure into debt. Considering Adam Davidson’s testimony that the Global Initiative is a way for rich people to feel good while making money, and Ira Magaziner’s admission that the Foundation’s work has little to do with charity, it is worth expanding our inquiry beyond fundraising. The Clinton Foundation’s problem is not just how it makes its money, but how it spends it.

Portions of this article have been adapted from the book Superpredator: Bill Clinton’s Use and Abuse of Black America.
 
Thucydides said:
So what is the Clinton Foundation, exactly?

https://www.currentaffairs.org/2016/08/the-clinton-foundations-problems-are-deeper-than

Actually this article had me asking who in the hell is Nathan J. Robinson and quite honestly after some research I'm not much smarter.

It appears that last year he was a PhD student at Harvard and was crowd-sourcing money to start "Current Affairs" which at his website is described in part as:

a beautiful full-color edition full of elegant design, sophisticated prose, and satirical advertisements. Experience our dazzling illustrations and amass our collectible covers. Much of our content is exclusive to the magazine, so subscribing is the only way to truly experience Current Affairs in all its brilliant vibrance. Each issue has puzzles, cut-outs, quizzes, and other endless surprises that will keep you reading it for weeks and weeks.

On top of that he has written what appear to be either anarchistic or socialist political science books for children like "The Day That The Crayons Organized an Autonomous Workers' Collective: A Parody" and "The Mayor of New Orleans Gets Her Way" (Although in fairness this may just be weird political satire in the guise of a children's book and I'm too thick to see through the simplistic humour although I do see it in "Blueprints for a Sparkling Tomorrow: Thoughts on Reclaiming the American Dream" [I especially like the lecture "On Carnivorous Plants] and therefore am led to the conclusion that he's a satirist).

In this book of utopian prophecies, the problems of contemporary human society are theorized and textually rectified. The authors expose the dysfunctions embedded in modern life, from shoddy architecture to the existence of police. Featuring over 125 chapters, countless footnotes, an extended bibliography, four appendices, and a full index, this revised and expanded edition of Blueprints for a Sparkling Tomorrow promises to restore the prospects for a civilization gone mad.

Oh Yeah and an anti-Bill Clinton Book: "Superpredator: Bill Clinton's Use and Abuse of Black America."
https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_2?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=Nathan+J.+Robinson

If anyone can find a better biography and let me know what this guy is all about, I'd appreciate it.

:cheers:

 
First there's a Russian connection (a campaign staff member who worked before for the exiled pro-Russia ex-President of Ukraine), now there's a Saudi one:

New York Daily News

EXCLUSIVE: Donald Trump made millions from Saudi government
New York Daily News

STEPHEN REX BROWN

Donald Trump has blasted Hillary Clinton for accepting money from Saudi Arabia through her foundation, but a Daily News investigation reveals he has padded his bank account with cash from the same country.

Trump sold the 45th floor of Trump World Tower to the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia for $4.5 million in June 2001, according to a city Finance Department spokeswoman. In 2008, the apartments became part of the Saudi Mission to the United Nations, records show.

The five apartments included 10 bedrooms and 13 bathrooms at the time of the sale, and had yearly common charges of $85,585 for building amenities, documents obtained by The News show. If those common charges remain the same, Trump was paid at least $5.7 million by the Saudi government since 2001.

(...SNIPPED)
 
Man what a scoop! A real estate mogul sold expensive apartments to someone who could afford them! Its like there's a difference between selling something to someone, and taking a large donation....
 
PuckChaser said:
Man what a scoop! A real estate mogul sold expensive apartments to someone who could afford them! Its like there's a difference between selling something to someone, and taking a large donation....

One's a better salesman.  One had to supply a useful good.  The other ......

Edit:  Oh damme!  I promised myself I was going to leave this thread alone.  ;D
 
On the other hand - there are Brit political charities as well

Keith Vaz to be probed over allegations of 'charity payments' to prostitutes

VazDancer-medium.jpg


Keith Vaz's charity links to rent boy scandal

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/09/04/keith-vaz-to-be-probed-over-charity-payments-to-prostitutes-alle/


What a great time to be alive, I tell you.
 
Chris Pook said:
One's a better salesman.  One had to supply a useful good.  The other ......

Edit:  Oh damme!  I promised myself I was going to leave this thread alone.  ;D

Its like a trainwreck. You just can't help yourself.
 
Charity watch gives Clinton Foundation an "A" rating.

https://www.charitywatch.org/ratings-and-metrics/bill-hillary-chelsea-clinton-foundation/478
 
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