Updated Army Service Dress project

[WLSC]

A what??

I guess their CPO were massaging to much the lower deck concerns. They had to bring a Master Sailor to talk to the boss

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Jesus

 

[Halifax Tar]

Jesus

It should have sent shockwaves through the C&POs but it's gone pretty well unnoticed. By most. When I bring it up I get shoulder shrugs...

I mean good on JRs for getting a voice, I can respect that. The problem is that voice already existed we just weren't using it.

 

[rmc_wannabe]

It should have sent shockwaves through the C&POs but it's gone pretty well unnoticed. By most. When I bring it up I get shoulder shrugs...

I mean good on JRs for getting a voice, I can respect that. The problem is that voice already existed we just weren't using it.

I called it "Animal Farm leadership" when this kind of thing happens.

SNCOs and WOs are the bridge between Comd and the coal face. When your coal face can't discern between who is man and who is pig... you have a serious problem. It screams that Senior rating folks have zero interest in doing what's right for their people and will rather go along with what the boss says to curry favour or not rock the boat.

 

[Halifax Tar]

I called it "Animal Farm leadership" when this kind of thing happens.

SNCOs and WOs are the bridge between Comd and the coal face. When your coal face can't discern between who is man and who is pig... you have a serious problem. It screams that Senior rating folks have zero interest in doing what's right for their people and will rather go along with what the boss says to curry favour or not rock the boat.

Couldn't agree more.

 

[ueo]

A Command Master Sailor.

The JRs have their own representation at the command level now.

And hows that working?

 

[Halifax Tar]

And hows that working?

No idea. I'm under Army Command at the moment.

 

[daftandbarmy]

And hows that working?

 

[dimsum]

Familiarity breeds contempt, I have seen what happens when everyone gets to buddy buddy and fails to respect the CoC.

You can be buddy-buddy (to an extent) and still respect the CoC. Aircrew, including NCMs (AES Ops, Flight Engineers, SAR Techs, and Loadies) do it all the time. To an extent, the techs are like that too on certain sqns - some sqns more so than others.

I was, and am still, friends with the AES Ops I knew when they were Aviators. Same with the FEs, Techs, etc. Everyone involved needs to understand that there is "work" and "not-work" situations.

We need more not less separation and respect for rank and position than what we have now.

Having been in the RCN and RCAF (as per my profile picture), I wholeheartedly disagree. You can have respect without separation. That was the big change I noticed when switching trades.

Edit: Short anecdote - we were on operations with a rider on a flight. This person had, shall we say, a stereotypical view of the RCAF "aircrew culture" and after the mission, during the debrief they said "what I'm most impressed at is that you guys were joking around but the second we called 'On Station' and the mission started, you guys flipped a switch and became all business. That was pretty cool to see."

 

[dapaterson]

And that sort of connection can also exist in Army units; there are Pte(R)s that I knew as a Lt that I still chat with who have gone on to be MWOs, RSMs, Bde SMs...

 

[Eye In The Sky]

And that sort of connection can also exist in Army units; there are Pte(R)s that I knew as a Lt that I still chat with who have gone on to be MWOs, RSMs, Bde SMs...

People seem to believe only aircrew do the first name thing. When I was a driver, my crew commander rarely called me by rank/name. When I was the CC, it was first name basis. We all knew who’s job was what.

 

[OldSolduer]

You can be buddy-buddy (to an extent) and still respect the CoC. Aircrew, including NCMs (AES Ops, Flight Engineers, SAR Techs, and Loadies) do it all the time. To an extent, the techs are like that too on certain sqns - some sqns more so than others.

I was, and am still, friends with the AES Ops I knew when they were Aviators. Same with the FEs, Techs, etc. Everyone involved needs to understand that there is "work" and "not-work" situations.


Having been in the RCN and RCAF (as per my profile picture), I wholeheartedly disagree. You can have respect without separation. That was the big change I noticed when switching trades.

Edit: Short anecdote - we were on operations with a rider on a flight. This person had, shall we say, a stereotypical view of the RCAF "aircrew culture" and after the mission, during the debrief they said "what I'm most impressed at is that you guys were joking around but the second we called 'On Station' and the mission started, you guys flipped a switch and became all business. That was pretty cool to see."

Good answer - its a situational thing.

In my former world the CoC was everything. Officers officered, WO's and Sgt's steered with the assistance of MCpls and troops did what they were told to do.

Young Lts just out of phase training were given a platoon to command and generally given a very competent WO or switched on Sgt as his 2 I/C to guide the young un.

The infantry is a very different cat from the rest of the military. There is some room for jesting - especially at the expense of your new Pl Comd.

 

[daftandbarmy]

It’s


People seem to believe only aircrew do the first name thing. When I was a driver, my crew commander rarely called me by rank/name. When I was the CC, it was first name basis. We all knew who’s job was what.

And I have seen that go badly wrong for many in the Infantry and 'Semi-Specials'.

I watched a CSM, recently returned from a long stint in SOF to work in a rifle company, lose the respect of just about all of his NCOs largely due to his casual and 'chummy' approach.

He'd list a string of first names related to some task or other (e.g., Bob, Jim, Shane and Bill... take Jim and Doug and go do such and such....) and no one knew what he was talking about

 

[Edward Campbell]

Meanwhile, my troops if left unsupervised ...

And not just the troops ... I remember being a subbie in the 1960s

 

[rmc_wannabe]

You can be buddy-buddy (to an extent) and still respect the CoC. Aircrew, including NCMs (AES Ops, Flight Engineers, SAR Techs, and Loadies) do it all the time. To an extent, the techs are like that too on certain sqns - some sqns more so than others.

I was, and am still, friends with the AES Ops I knew when they were Aviators. Same with the FEs, Techs, etc. Everyone involved needs to understand that there is "work" and "not-work" situations.


Having been in the RCN and RCAF (as per my profile picture), I wholeheartedly disagree. You can have respect without separation. That was the big change I noticed when switching trades.

Edit: Short anecdote - we were on operations with a rider on a flight. This person had, shall we say, a stereotypical view of the RCAF "aircrew culture" and after the mission, during the debrief they said "what I'm most impressed at is that you guys were joking around but the second we called 'On Station' and the mission started, you guys flipped a switch and became all business. That was pretty cool to see."

Situational is a thing. I think the worst hangover we have from Unification is the disbelief that different sub-cultures, structures, and behaviours exist; ergo culture changes and solutions have to be uniform across the CAF/L1/Trade/Unit etc.

The RCAF crew-based, egalitarian model works for them, I don't think the RCN would buy into it. Nor do I understand the RCN's strict compartmentalized Department structure, as Army Operations require at least a general understanding of what flanking formations are doing, not to mention having to factor in CS/CSS groups in the plan.

 

[FSTO]

Nor do I understand the RCN's strict compartmentalized Department structure

To an outsider its appears to be strict but in the ship, since we all live, eat, sleep, and work in very close proximity to each other we know what each department is doing (as long as personal fights don't get in the way). In a well oiled ships company information flow between combat/supply/engineering/air/deck becomes seamless because that is the only way the mission is a success.

On the other hand, I have no idea how an army battalion gets out of the garrison gate!

 

[rmc_wannabe]

On the other hand, I have no idea how an army battalion gets out of the garrison gate!

Neither do we, it just kind of... happens. It's like seeing a comet pass: mysterious and beautiful

 

[OldSolduer]

To an outsider its appears to be strict but in the ship, since we all live, eat, sleep, and work in very close proximity to each other we know what each department is doing (as long as personal fights don't get in the way). In a well oiled ships company information flow between combat/supply/engineering/air/deck becomes seamless because that is the only way the mission is a success.

On the other hand, I have no idea how an army battalion gets out of the garrison gate!

It’s actually easy - and hard- at the same time.

 

[Halifax Tar]

On the other hand, I have no idea how an army battalion gets out of the garrison gate!

Neither does the Army. It's called Logistics. And it's ignored.

 

[OldSolduer]

Neither does the Army. It's called Logistics. And it's ignored.

Actually it’s been 25 years since I deployed anywhere. IIRC ours - an infantry unit - did pretty well on that front