Updated Army Service Dress project

[ArmyRick]

The can of worms is now open.

Well, the Rangers are also a sub-component of the reserve force and have their own distinct uniform. Like Rangers, CIC members don't need to meet universality of service requirements and can't be called into active service, unlike members of the RegF and Primary Reserve.

Cadets themselves already have a distinct uniform, which they continue to wear when employed as staff cadets for summer training... What is the benefit of having CIC officers wear different uniforms than those they are responsible for training/leading? Arguably, wearing the cadet uniforms, rather than the regular CAF ones, would make CIC more similar to the other components of the CAF. It'd also probably cost less money and simplify supply to cadet units in remote areas.

The merits of CIC holding a commission to be in charge of children, who have no obligation to follow their orders, is a whole other discussion not relevant to uniforms but that may be worth having... Why give CIC command authority and pay them a captain's salary when they do not have comparable educational prerequisites, medical or physical standards, training, or service obligations of officers in the RegF or PRes? Again, the Rangers are also members of the CAF and do not have commissioned officers (aside from those RegF members posted in support roles), and they go on armed patrols.

Rangers have a uniform and kit that is functional to them. If Rangers really wanted a DEU, they would probably ask for it by now. The rangers I have met would never want to bother with a DEU.

The CIC and COATS (I nearly transferred to COATS as a WO, and would simply wear my last regiment's identity) wear DEU and operational dress depending on on their duties. They have been doing so since before I was born. So why make a pointless change now? Because you don't like them? Go pound salt, dude.

No can of worms to open except by people like you. The last job I had before I released was training CIC officers on their basic and I worked with an excellent CWO Eli Aucoin (MP Branch). The CIC have their mission statement and they have a job to do, get the fuck over it. All in all, I was rather impressed with the mostly professional officers. Guess what? I have met unprofessional losers in both the Reg force and P Res, so its not unique to CIC. Their job is a greatly under appreciated and undervalued job, to develop, mentor and foster youth into responsible people. And the majority do an excellent job.

Nope, I stand in full opposition against your narrowed view.

 

[ArmyRick]

What is the benefit of having CIC officers wear different uniforms than those they are responsible for training/leading?

Heres an amazing concept. Cadet uniforms are a little cheaper yes but two things
1. They are teenagers, if they trash their uniforms, not a big lost; and
2. Again, they are teenagers and change sizes every 6-12 months. Incase you didn't realize teenagers grow.

Nope, I at least want our CIC to look and act professional and kept away from demeaning and condescending people like you. And guess what? CIC is subject to the service code discipline.

Tell us about your vast first hand experiences working with the CIC? Enlighten us?

 

[Winds]

ArmyRick, I'm not sure where you get off accusing me of being "demeaning and condescending" or suggesting that I "don't like" CIC officers. Perhaps you should reread what I wrote and, while you're at it, reread your own statements as well. I wrote my last post in response to your own attempt at shutting down any legitimate conversation on the topic by insinuating that the idea was "bone headed", and thus not worthy of discussion. You don't need to divulge into personal attacks just because someone states an opinion you dislike.

I used te Rangers as a comparator to the Canadian Cadet Organization (CCO) because they are also a sub-component of the reserve force and also uniquely distinct from the rest of the CAF in their role and purpose. This thread is supposed to be about uniforms and I don't think it is such a wild concept to consider that perhaps CIC should wear more similar uniforms to the cadets that they are in charge of.

You stated that "Rangers have a uniform and kit that is functional to them". That was kind of my point too. Cadets also have a uniform that is functional to them, so it begs the question what differs between them and the CIC that necessitates different uniforms. The CCO is the only CAF component where the officers have significantly different uniforms than those they are in charge of leading.

You previously suggested that CIC should properly wear DEU because "They are members of the CAF, period." That's why I pointed out that the Rangers are CAF members and have there own uniforms that doesn't include DEU. New members of the PRes also don't normally receive DEU until they reach OFP and have 2 years of service. DEU are expensive, period. If CIC were to where cadet uniforms, if a derivative of it, I'd bet there would be significant cost savings for the organization that could be repurposed.

It wouldn't be a "pointless change" if it saved money and may have other improvements within the CCO as well... if the CIC consider the uniforms of the cadets beneath them, then maybe they should advocate for the cadet scale of issue to be improved in design/quality.

I also never mentioned anything about the professionalism or unprofessionalism of CIC officers individually or as a collective and am not sure why you've brought that up as somehow relevant to the discussion. I in fact strongly support the CCO and have respect for the CIC who run it, generally. However, that doesn't mean the current way the organization is organized, administered, or clothed is beyond discussion.

Sure, CIC officers may have been wearing DEU since unification but cadets used to wear service uniforms too. The army is moving away from DEU, the question is if CIC officers should wear the new army service dress. Yes, they are CAF members but they are NOT members of the Canadian Army (or RCN/RCAF).

 

[markppcli]

ArmyRick, I'm not sure where you get off accusing me of being "demeaning and condescending" or suggesting that I "don't like" CIC officers. Perhaps you should reread what I wrote and, while you're at it, reread your own statements as well. I wrote my last post in response to your own attempt at shutting down any legitimate conversation on the topic by insinuating that the idea was "bone headed", and thus not worthy of discussion. You don't need to divulge into personal attacks just because someone states an opinion you dislike.

I used te Rangers as a comparator to the Canadian Cadet Organization (CCO) because they are also a sub-component of the reserve force and also uniquely distinct from the rest of the CAF in their role and purpose. This thread is supposed to be about uniforms and I don't think it is such a wild concept to consider that perhaps CIC should wear more similar uniforms to the cadets that they are in charge of.

You stated that "Rangers have a uniform and kit that is functional to them". That was kind of my point too. Cadets also have a uniform that is functional to them, so it begs the question what differs between them and the CIC that necessitates different uniforms. The CCO is the only CAF component where the officers have significantly different uniforms than those they are in charge of leading.

You previously suggested that CIC should properly wear DEU because "They are members of the CAF, period." That's why I pointed out that the Rangers are CAF members and have there own uniforms that doesn't include DEU. New members of the PRes also don't normally receive DEU until they reach OFP and have 2 years of service. DEU are expensive, period. If CIC were to where cadet uniforms, if a derivative of it, I'd bet there would be significant cost savings for the organization that could be repurposed.

It wouldn't be a "pointless change" if it saved money and may have other improvements within the CCO as well... if the CIC consider the uniforms of the cadets beneath them, then maybe they should advocate for the cadet scale of issue to be improved in design/quality.

I also never mentioned anything about the professionalism or unprofessionalism of CIC officers individually or as a collective and am not sure why you've brought that up as somehow relevant to the discussion. I in fact strongly support the CCO and have respect for the CIC who run it, generally. However, that doesn't mean the current way the organization is organized, administered, or clothed is beyond discussion.

Sure, CIC officers may have been wearing DEU since unification but cadets used to wear service uniforms too. The army is moving away from DEU, the question is if CIC officers should wear the new army service dress. Yes, they are CAF members but they are NOT members of the Canadian Army (or RCN/RCAF).

Very very well said.