Updated Army Service Dress project

[markppcli]

@Winds So Canadian Rangers elect their NCOs. Should we have take that from them because no one else does it? Or do we get the CIC to elect their own commissioned officers? Did you forget CIC are commissioned officers?

Should they be commissioned officers might be the better question. I get that they are because of the origins of the cadet movement but now that it’s arms length, does it make sense ? If we built up the cadets today would we arrive at the conclusion they ought to be commissioned officers? I doubt it.

 

[ArmyRick]

Should they be commissioned officers might be the better question. I get that they are because of the origins of the cadet movement but now that it’s arms length, does it make sense ? If we built up the cadets today would we arrive at the conclusion they ought to be commissioned officers? I doubt it.

Let me sum it up for you. First you defended someone who was rather passively aggressively shitting on the CIC. To me thats not acceptable.

Next, try and shut down the CIC movement and watch the CAF give you a hard pass for doing so. Thats a very large political football your fucking with.

My personal views on tis are such. I had a not very good opinion of the CIC as an old infantry WO but I kept my yap shut, minded my own business and still saluted their commissioned officers. Then in 2016, my RSM asked me to work with them training them on their Basic officers course in Borden (I was on track to being promoted to MWO and thats what they needed). When I worked directly with them, these are things that really impressed me
1. Many of them take their mission seriously (to train, mentor and develop youth);
2. I was surprised at their willingness to learn and improve on their skills;
3. I was surprised when I was DS assessing them on small party task leadership and task procedure (watered down Battle procedure); and
4. Most of them knew their lanes and stayed within it.

I also witnessed CAF members who bullied, disrespected and behaved very unprofessionally towards them. Like to the point I stood an EME MCPL to attention for refusing to salute a CIC MAJOR of all things because according to him "She was not a real officer.." Needless to say, when that one reached the base CWO in Borden, it didn't work out well.

The bad attitude didn't stop there. I was blown away at how many people of various ranks shit all over and showed complete disrespect towards the CIC. I was having lunch with CWO Aucoin and the Army CWO at the time, and believe me, we had a long chat about the unacceptable attitude of some towards the CAF.

I recognize @Winds and @RocketRichard piss poor attitude towards fellow CAF members. I am retired now so I will be even more blunt and up front about standing up for things that I see as just wrong.

How about CIC officers and COATS not wear the same uniforms as other members in the CAF?

 

[markppcli]

Let me sum it up for you. First you defended someone who was rather passively aggressively shitting on the CIC. To me thats not acceptable.

Next, try and shut down the CIC movement and watch the CAF give you a hard pass for doing so. Thats a very large political football your fucking with.

My personal views on tis are such. I had a not very good opinion of the CIC as an old infantry WO but I kept my yap shut, minded my own business and still saluted their commissioned officers. Then in 2016, my RSM asked me to work with them training them on their Basic officers course in Borden (I was on track to being promoted to MWO and thats what they needed). When I worked directly with them, these are things that really impressed me
1. Many of them take their mission seriously (to train, mentor and develop youth);
2. I was surprised at their willingness to learn and improve on their skills;
3. I was surprised when I was DS assessing them on small party task leadership and task procedure (watered down Battle procedure); and
4. Most of them knew their lanes and stayed within it.

I also witnessed CAF members who bullied, disrespected and behaved very unprofessionally towards them. Like to the point I stood an EME MCPL to attention for refusing to salute a CIC MAJOR of all things because according to him "She was not a real officer.." Needless to say, when that one reached the base CWO in Borden, it didn't work out well.

The bad attitude didn't stop there. I was blown away at how many people of various ranks shit all over and showed complete disrespect towards the CIC. I was having lunch with CWO Aucoin and the Army CWO at the time, and believe me, we had a long chat about the unacceptable attitude of some towards the CAF.

I recognize @Winds and @RocketRichard piss poor attitude towards fellow CAF members. I am retired now so I will be even more blunt and up front about standing up for things that I see as just wrong.

What I’m taking from this is that you’ll accept absolutely 0 criticism or discussion regarding the CIC. The only rudeness or insults I’ve seen on this thread are in your responses.

 

[ArmyRick]

What I’m taking from this is that you’ll accept absolutely 0 criticism or discussion regarding the CIC.

Reasonable discussion sure.

But take away their DEUs/CadPAT/Navy Work dress because...reasons? Mark, open your eyes, that comment was a blatant knock on the CIC.

 

[ArmyRick]

What I’m taking from this is that you’ll accept absolutely 0 criticism or discussion regarding the CIC. The only rudeness or insults I’ve seen on this thread are in your responses.

Lets discuss their course structure, pay, employment, additional training, etc. Like productive things.

 

[markppcli]

Reasonable discussion sure.

But take away their DEUs/CadPAT/Navy Work dress because...reasons? Mark, open your eyes, that comment was a blatant knock on the CIC.

No, it wasn’t. It was a suggestion that if the concern in the Army Dress is cost per unit, then perhaps those members there aren’t in the Army - the CIC, could have their own uniform. Both to align themselves better with their troops and establish a one identity. You chose to take that as an attack, and then you started insulting people. We’re not going to talk about CIC course ware because this is a thread about service dress.

 

[Remius]

Easy solution is the CIC could carry on wearing the forest green uniform. I’m sure there will be plenty of stock left for a while. Enough to bridge to another solution in the future.

I’m fairly ambivalent to whet they wear tbh. I mean, CANSOF created a distinct set of uniforms and no one thinks any less of them.

Somewhat related, in the event of a conflict would the CIC be legit targets?

 

[dapaterson]

Somewhat related, in the event of a conflict would the CIC be legit targets?

Are they members of the CAF?

Question: as they are CAF members surrounding themselves with children, could the children be categorized as human shields protecting lawful military targets?

EDIT: Think about the Cadet camp at Connaught - children scattered around a military facility used for training CAF members. What is an enemy did that?

 

[ArmyRick]

Are they members of the CAF?

Yes they are.

Cadet Instructor Cadre Officers - Canada.ca

Information regarding the Cadet Instructor Cadre

www.canada.ca

Question: as they are CAF members surrounding themselves with children, could the children be categorized as human shields protecting lawful military targets?

No you can not target unarmed children period. You also can't target medics, hospitals or padres/imans/rabbis properly marked and executing their duties. You also can not target places of worship where no enemy action is taking place.

Now the Canadian Rangers on the other hand, may be a different story. They are a CAF presence in remote regions of Canada and I ask if an invading force would target them as a legit ISTAR asset?

 

[dapaterson]

No you can not target unarmed children period. You also can't target medics, hospitals or padres/imans/rabbis properly marked and executing their duties. You also can not target places of worship where no enemy action is taking place.

Now the Canadian Rangers on the other hand, may be a different story. They are a CAF presence in remote regions of Canada and I ask if an invading force would target them as a legit ISTAR asset?

I agree - but using children as shield is a war crime. So having Cadets on CAF establishments...

 

[FJAG]

I agree - but using children as shield is a war crime. So having Cadets on CAF establishments...

There's a significant difference between having children present on a base and using them as shields.

 

[Winds]

@ArmyRick, as others have pointed out, you seem to be drawing inferences and conclusions that are not based off what I or anyone else actually wrote. I was never "shitting on the CIC"... can you point to anything that I wrote that actually did so? If you read my previous post, I stated that "I in fact strongly support the CCO and have respect for the CIC who run it".

"But take away their DEUs/CadPAT/Navy Work dress because...reasons?" The reasons were laid out to you very plainly. While CIC officers are members of the CAF, they are a unique sub-component of the reserves with the role of training/mentoring cadets. It is an admirable job but not all CAF members wear DEUs. I used the Rangers as a comparator because they are also a unique sub-component of the reserves, I wasn't trying to insinuate CIC should wear the same uniforms as the Rangers. Rather, I suggested that perhaps they should have their own uniform aligned with the cadets they lead. That you think such a suggestion is an insult somehow is a conclusion you came to all on your own. I even recommended that if the cadet uniforms aren't that great, perhaps they should be improved.

And yes, I was a cadet in my youth and have dealt with CIC officers on occasion. I've also worked in recruiting and completed the hiring interviews and suitability assessments for CIC officers. I know the service requirements/obligations of CIC officers and how they differ from all other CAF members, including those in the Supp Res. Stating they don't need to meet universality of service requirements and that they aren't subject to unlimited liability is not a slight against the CIC. It'd actually be pretty pointless and unattainable for such requirements to be put in place... many cadet units would simply not be able to find suitable volunteers if there was an arbitrary requirement to meet regular CAF medical requirements, completely removed from any actual bona fide requirement to train/mentor youth effectively. It does make them quite a bit different than other service members, however (different doesn't mean inferior, by the way).

When the Cadet Instructor Cadre was created during the First World War, their role was to train young boys in various military skills, such as marksmanship, auto repair, wireless radio usage, etc. specifically to prepare them for future service. Originally, both cadets and CIC wore service uniforms (this thread is about uniforms, BTW) but things have evolved quite a bit since then.

In response to your question, "do we get the CIC to elect their own commissioned officers": normally, the COs of cadet units do recruit and select (elect) their own officers. CFRG does the background processing and vetting (which I have experience in) to determine if they are suitable. The PRes recruit officers somewhat similarly but the CIC often give prospective officers a trial as a civilian volunteer with the corps first before recommending them for commissioning.

 

[rmc_wannabe]

So.... I like that it looks like we're moving away from the gold thread and back to an off-white colour for insignia.

long overdue....

 

[FJAG]

So.... I like that it looks like we're moving away from the gold thread and back to an off-white colour for insignia.

long overdue....

Ahhh! Back to painting my bombardier's stripes white.

 

[dimsum]

I’m still giving 50/50 that the RCAF looks at the new (old) CA uniform and decides to do the same.

 

[Furniture]

Reasonable discussion sure.

But take away their DEUs/CadPAT/Navy Work dress because...reasons? Mark, open your eyes, that comment was a blatant knock on the CIC.

The "reasons" are simply that they are not subject to the same conditions of service as other CAF members, just like the Rangers.

I was a cadet, considered CIC as a option when I aged out.

 

[Eaglelord17]

I agree - but using children as shield is a war crime. So having Cadets on CAF establishments...

We have 16 year olds in the CAF, which is technically child soldiers. That is substantially more involved than any affiliated youth movement using military facilities periodically.

 

[Furniture]

We have 16 year olds in the CAF, which is technically child soldiers. That is substantially more involved than any affiliated youth movement using military facilities periodically.

They are not allowed be deployed outside of Canada, so we avoid the ickiness of of child soldiers that way.

 

[OldSolduer]

They are not allowed be deployed outside of Canada, so we avoid the ickiness of of child soldiers that way.

18 is thd deployable age.

 

[Furniture]

I’m still giving 50/50 that the RCAF looks at the new (old) CA uniform and decides to do the same.

I think the RCAF uniform could be great with two simple tweaks; adding a belt, and switching to a peaked cap instead of the wedge.

If the wedge was actually still a useful field cap, I'd be all about it. The current abomination needs to die.