UNAUTHORIZED DISPOSAL OF COMBAT UNIFORMS AND EQUIPMENT
- Thread starter John Nayduk
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I asked for the samew thing (a link to it scanned or something) but was told that it was "verified by someone on the forum"
It didn't make much sense...I was wondering if it was at all possible.
It didn't make much sense...I was wondering if it was at all possible.
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Good Day,
I don't want to start off by stepping on peoples toes, and I have to go back a few posts to get back on this topic but:
As far as I am aware (as a Supply Tech) all items that are CADPAT(TW)or(AR) are CTAT and if/when deemed surplus and or non serviceable they are to be destroyed through CADC(Crown Assets) and thus any Legit supply Item of CADPAT that is out there in possession or being sold by any person is illegal, Keeping in mind that there are a few (very few) companies that are authorized by DND to produce CADPAT items. And I have seen my self several very good knockoffs. Back to the CTAT, I have been out of the clothing loop for some time now and this may have changed, but I would likely doubt it.
On the topic of the Air Cadet owning/wearing what he claims to be the "real deal" CADPAT, well I would like to say the following in hopes that he does not take offence. Being a former Cadet my self I know what the feeling is like to want to wear the latest and newest kit on field exercises, and in all actuality back in my day (lol like it was long ago) my Old Squadron encouraged it. But, I have read I don't remember if it was the QR&O's Cadets or the CATO's Vol ? But I know I read specifically that CADPAT was NOTto be worn by any Cadet at anytime while acting as a Cadet. Now if he is wearing them for his own leisure activities well, I'm not and MP or a JAG but I would say if they are the "real deal" then yes because of the strict control and disposal of these items they are illegal. And if he is wearing them on Cadet exercises then the own is his on his Leadership and him self to enforce the rules and regulations governing the Canadian Cadet Movement. (and I must say he has better connections then me lol)
Hope None Are/Were Offended By This Post
I don't want to start off by stepping on peoples toes, and I have to go back a few posts to get back on this topic but:
As far as I am aware (as a Supply Tech) all items that are CADPAT(TW)or(AR) are CTAT and if/when deemed surplus and or non serviceable they are to be destroyed through CADC(Crown Assets) and thus any Legit supply Item of CADPAT that is out there in possession or being sold by any person is illegal, Keeping in mind that there are a few (very few) companies that are authorized by DND to produce CADPAT items. And I have seen my self several very good knockoffs. Back to the CTAT, I have been out of the clothing loop for some time now and this may have changed, but I would likely doubt it.
On the topic of the Air Cadet owning/wearing what he claims to be the "real deal" CADPAT, well I would like to say the following in hopes that he does not take offence. Being a former Cadet my self I know what the feeling is like to want to wear the latest and newest kit on field exercises, and in all actuality back in my day (lol like it was long ago) my Old Squadron encouraged it. But, I have read I don't remember if it was the QR&O's Cadets or the CATO's Vol ? But I know I read specifically that CADPAT was NOTto be worn by any Cadet at anytime while acting as a Cadet. Now if he is wearing them for his own leisure activities well, I'm not and MP or a JAG but I would say if they are the "real deal" then yes because of the strict control and disposal of these items they are illegal. And if he is wearing them on Cadet exercises then the own is his on his Leadership and him self to enforce the rules and regulations governing the Canadian Cadet Movement. (and I must say he has better connections then me lol)
Hope None Are/Were Offended By This Post
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I for one am getting sick and tired of seeing things like second generation CADPAT and tacvests and what not being sold on eBay. Not to sound like a whiner here but I figure I, even as a lowly RMC cadet, should have CADPAT before some guy can buy it off eBay. Same story with the tacvest. I don't even know when I will be receiving these items. :rage: Just stupid I tell ya. Look at this: http://cgi.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=36071&item=2287543067&rd=1 Just out of curiosity, how many of us here in Reg or Res haven't received a tacvest? I for one haven't.
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Big Foot said:
When we were kitted out for Op ATHENA Roto 0 we had to turn in our webbing in order to get the new tac vest - so, I cut my name tags off of everything and handed it all in ... (can you see what's coming next ... ?)
Yup - you guessed it - the story is that there aren't enough for Roto 3, so ... I have to turn in my vest ... there's no way on Earth I'd even contemplate blading anybody going on Roto ...
(hmmm ... I wonder how much gun tape it'll take to rig up my duffle bag to look like a vest next time I go to the field ...)
B
buffalo-bill-
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Hi folks;
I'm a law student with no real experience in the Military but am writing part of an analysis on Military Law out of interest for the special nature of it all. I realize that there are tons of topics with "CaDPat" as a subject - but need some expertise as it pertains to the actual letter of the law.
There has been mention in other topics of 'charges' being laid against soldiers and civilians for selling and possessing CaDPat. I can't find anything in the National Defence Act, which is the parliamentary act that gives power to the military justice system to enforce certain laws. I can't find any orders in council, and I can't find any recent amendments to the Queen's Regulations. Can somebody please let me know how this works? Under what authority is a civilian or member charged for possessing Cadpat if no law exists? Perhaps an officer with actual powers of punishment or the authority to lay charges can describe, for me, what they quote on the Record of Disciplinary Proceedings?
To give some background: I read an article in the newspaper about a place in Morinville, AB selling genuine CaDPat. I suppose that it had caused quite a stir in some Albertan circles. When I called the retailer, he had mentioned that it was not, infact, part of the legal system and that hunters are totally entitled to it if they can get it but that the military apparently 'burns' it now. After this retailer sells off its stock, that'll be it.
Would somebody give me a bit of help here? Can anybody provide me with an actual law (besides the obvious and horribly outdated Criminal Code violation which is rarely, if ever, enforced and for which I can find no case law)?
Tons of thanks in advance.
BMP
I'm a law student with no real experience in the Military but am writing part of an analysis on Military Law out of interest for the special nature of it all. I realize that there are tons of topics with "CaDPat" as a subject - but need some expertise as it pertains to the actual letter of the law.
There has been mention in other topics of 'charges' being laid against soldiers and civilians for selling and possessing CaDPat. I can't find anything in the National Defence Act, which is the parliamentary act that gives power to the military justice system to enforce certain laws. I can't find any orders in council, and I can't find any recent amendments to the Queen's Regulations. Can somebody please let me know how this works? Under what authority is a civilian or member charged for possessing Cadpat if no law exists? Perhaps an officer with actual powers of punishment or the authority to lay charges can describe, for me, what they quote on the Record of Disciplinary Proceedings?
To give some background: I read an article in the newspaper about a place in Morinville, AB selling genuine CaDPat. I suppose that it had caused quite a stir in some Albertan circles. When I called the retailer, he had mentioned that it was not, infact, part of the legal system and that hunters are totally entitled to it if they can get it but that the military apparently 'burns' it now. After this retailer sells off its stock, that'll be it.
Would somebody give me a bit of help here? Can anybody provide me with an actual law (besides the obvious and horribly outdated Criminal Code violation which is rarely, if ever, enforced and for which I can find no case law)?
Tons of thanks in advance.
BMP
G
Greasyoldman
Guest
Well, I can even come close to answering your questions.. but here's the website of a local company that sells CadPat bags and whatnot.. I'm gonna take a shot in the dark and say they're legit because Canex has been selling their products for quiet some time now. They may be able to give you an answer..
http://www.wheelersonline.com/
Ty
http://www.wheelersonline.com/
Ty
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Hey Bill
I did an independent study for my grade 12 law class ( i know its nothing compared to law school) on the Canadian Military Justice system, i am not quite sure, but I would search the Queen's Regulations and Orders. I believe that is what its called http://www.admfincs.forces.gc.ca/admfincs/subjects/qr_o/intro_e.asp as well another document that actually would probably yield better results is the Canadian Forces Code of Conduct http://www.dnd.ca/jag/training/publications/code_of_conduct/Code_of_Conduct_e.pdf
I believe the reason the Canadian Forces burns its cadpat is due to the infrared defeating technology. Unfortunately I have no reference to this, and cant back it up, and I am not part of the CF, so take my opinion with a grain of salt.
Hope that information helps - Hammond
I did an independent study for my grade 12 law class ( i know its nothing compared to law school) on the Canadian Military Justice system, i am not quite sure, but I would search the Queen's Regulations and Orders. I believe that is what its called http://www.admfincs.forces.gc.ca/admfincs/subjects/qr_o/intro_e.asp as well another document that actually would probably yield better results is the Canadian Forces Code of Conduct http://www.dnd.ca/jag/training/publications/code_of_conduct/Code_of_Conduct_e.pdf
I believe the reason the Canadian Forces burns its cadpat is due to the infrared defeating technology. Unfortunately I have no reference to this, and cant back it up, and I am not part of the CF, so take my opinion with a grain of salt.
Hope that information helps - Hammond
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The CADPAT found in most shops or Frontenac's as they are becoming known as seem to have quite a few differences, I believe upon closer look they colours are not exactly that of CF CADPAT as well the size of the pixels differ, and instead of the epaulet being located on the chest there are two on each of the shoulders like the OD CBT's. If i recall correctly i believe the breast pockets are straight as well and not slanted as on the real CADPATS. Been along time since I've seen a pair.
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The frontenacs are made of real cadpat.
Here's the legality/illegality of owning/selling cadpat as I understand it, and I believe I have a fairly clear understanding, there may be a few mistakes...
The issues aren't rooted in military law, but rather in civillian copy-right law.
There's a copyright on CadPat. Either the Canadian army owns the copyright or leases from whoever owns it for it's manufacturers. Either way, it's copyrighted. You can't produce or sell CadPat fabric without the consent of the Canadian army. There are a number of manufacturers with this consent (Wheelers is one of them).
The "legal" rumors arise from the fact that supposedly the military doesn't sell it's damaged cadpat equipment as surplus, rather, it's destroyed. Meaning that any that was for sale had to have been stolen from crown assets... a few ratty pairs of pants that were going to be burned anyway disapearing may not seem like a major issue on the surface, but it's theft none-the-less, and the only way the stuff "disapears" out of inventory is via a supply tech with sticky fingers... if the supply tech is willing to steal *anything*, scrap or otherwise, they are un-trustworthy, so it becomes a very serious issue...
Admitedly, small amounts may have slipped out by accident, mixed with other surplus items (Or more notably, 2000 scrap uniforms accidentally sold to a dealer), and simply not been noticed, so not all cadpat surplus was nessascarily stolen property, but much was. The most common surplus item available seems to be the cadpat helmet covers, as they often accompany the helmets when sold for scrap.
Regarding the IR properties, this is nonsense... the uniforms are treated with an IR coating, yes, but as I understand it, it wears off, by the time most of the uniforms are ready for the scrap pile, the IR coating is good and well gone.
Why are the uniforms destroyed instead of being sold? I have no idea. Stupid paranoia about the IR properties? Copyrights? I don't know. But I think I've covered the legalities of owning cadpat fairly well. It's all about copyright and property laws.
Here's the legality/illegality of owning/selling cadpat as I understand it, and I believe I have a fairly clear understanding, there may be a few mistakes...
The issues aren't rooted in military law, but rather in civillian copy-right law.
There's a copyright on CadPat. Either the Canadian army owns the copyright or leases from whoever owns it for it's manufacturers. Either way, it's copyrighted. You can't produce or sell CadPat fabric without the consent of the Canadian army. There are a number of manufacturers with this consent (Wheelers is one of them).
The "legal" rumors arise from the fact that supposedly the military doesn't sell it's damaged cadpat equipment as surplus, rather, it's destroyed. Meaning that any that was for sale had to have been stolen from crown assets... a few ratty pairs of pants that were going to be burned anyway disapearing may not seem like a major issue on the surface, but it's theft none-the-less, and the only way the stuff "disapears" out of inventory is via a supply tech with sticky fingers... if the supply tech is willing to steal *anything*, scrap or otherwise, they are un-trustworthy, so it becomes a very serious issue...
Admitedly, small amounts may have slipped out by accident, mixed with other surplus items (Or more notably, 2000 scrap uniforms accidentally sold to a dealer), and simply not been noticed, so not all cadpat surplus was nessascarily stolen property, but much was. The most common surplus item available seems to be the cadpat helmet covers, as they often accompany the helmets when sold for scrap.
Regarding the IR properties, this is nonsense... the uniforms are treated with an IR coating, yes, but as I understand it, it wears off, by the time most of the uniforms are ready for the scrap pile, the IR coating is good and well gone.
Why are the uniforms destroyed instead of being sold? I have no idea. Stupid paranoia about the IR properties? Copyrights? I don't know. But I think I've covered the legalities of owning cadpat fairly well. It's all about copyright and property laws.
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Impersonation of a memeber of the armed forces would only apply if the person was actively trying to impersonate a member of the armed forces... wearing rank/insignia and such... a duck hunter buying a cadpat shirt because it's an excellent cam pattern is clearly not an attempt at impersonation, an air-softer wearing a full uniform and slip-ons they picked up at the surplus shop is... and as far as I'm concerned any time they do it off their private property (If you want to dress up and play army in your basement, who cares? But don't present an image to the public...), they should be fined for it...
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Love793 said:
I'm curious, I've read the particular section before (I've read much of the criminal code as sad as that may be), but I can't seem to find the particular section at the moment... you wouldn't happen to know the reference for it would you?
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Thanks, just curious about the actual wording...
Of particular relevance to people dressing up and playing soldier...
"(a) wears a uniform of the Canadian Forces or any other naval, army or air force or a uniform that is so similar to the uniform of any of those forces that it is likely to be mistaken therefor,"
I'd interpret that to mean that you're perfectly allowed to wear surplus clothing until it reaches a point where you could reasonably be mistaken for a member of the Canadian armed forces...
Red Green wearing a surplus parka, not a crime.
Airsoft player wearing a full uniform, crime.
A thought... perhaps if we were to actively prosecute people for it, having them fined, we could solve budgetary problems?
Of particular relevance to people dressing up and playing soldier...
"(a) wears a uniform of the Canadian Forces or any other naval, army or air force or a uniform that is so similar to the uniform of any of those forces that it is likely to be mistaken therefor,"
I'd interpret that to mean that you're perfectly allowed to wear surplus clothing until it reaches a point where you could reasonably be mistaken for a member of the Canadian armed forces...
Red Green wearing a surplus parka, not a crime.
Airsoft player wearing a full uniform, crime.
A thought... perhaps if we were to actively prosecute people for it, having them fined, we could solve budgetary problems?
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