U.S. Politics 2017 (split fm US Election: 2016)

[Retired AF Guy]

He still isn't calling out those elements of the house of Saud that are as involved with terrorist groups as Iran is.  Once again, SA gets a pass.

Something like that isn't going to be brought up in public, which would have been a major embarrassment. And we don't know what was discussed in private (at least not yet!), so its possible that this problem was brought up behind closed doors.

 

[jollyjacktar]

Something like that isn't going to be brought up in public, which would have been a major embarrassment. And we don't know what was discussed in private (at least not yet!), so its possible that this problem was brought up behind closed doors.

It bloody well should.  No POTUS has brought that up, ever.  They deserve to be embarrassed, outed and shamed.  Why should one hegemony be the whipping boy when others are up to similar shit?  You're right, we'll never know what was brought up in private, however I would be willing to stake my next paycheque that what should have been said, wasn't.

 

[FJAG]

Remius:

I'm not picking on you as you are far from the only individual anywhere that indulges themselves in this type of rhetoric.  You are in very good company.

I would just remind you, and those others, that it seldom does anybody any good to underestimate the opposition.  And derogatory vocabulary makes it easier to make that error. 

As to hoping for a man on white horse to arise in the aftermath..... be careful what you wish for.

My wish is the opposite.  My wish is that the US and the world discovers that the "system" works regardless of the man on the horse.  My greater wish is that the US and the world discover that the world goes on regardless of the "system".

I don't want the world's ills cured.  I want a good government that maintains peace and order so that me and mine can live freely with minimal government intervention.  Rex Murphy had an article about "social licence" in the National Post this weekend.  Another good article from him.  But I think that he rather missed the point.  Social licence is the responsibility of the government.  It is the reason why we hire governments.  They are there to minimize the frictions in a society so as to preserve peace and order.  Their job is to make decisions and absorb the impact of those decisions so as to preserve peace and order.  Their job is to apply the social licence that we grant them so as to preserve peace and order.

Granting licence to any subsidiary group or individual is not good governance and does not foster peace and order.  Not any more than anarchy would result in anything other than Hobbes's war of all against all.

Governments can't be friends.  The best that they can hope for is that they will be respected by most for a useful period of time.

That's an idea I can get behind.

I also read Murphy's article and thought he was bang on. (For those who missed it, it's here: http://news.nationalpost.com/full-comment/rex-murphy-notley-learns-a-hard-truth-about-social-licence-its-not-meant-to-be-granted-ever-thats-the-point)

Murphy's point is that there's no use in trying to obtain society's licence because as he said:

Notley missed the central point of social licence: its preconditions can never be met, and are not meant to be. It is an obstructionist tactic, designed to forestall and delay, till whatever its target has been become so worn down by process and protest and delay that it is simply taken off the policy table.

In other words it gets back to what I've said before--a leader isn't someone who takes the people where they want to go but someone who takes them to the right place to be even if they don't want to go there. We shouldn't be catering to every little naysayer just to still their voices. If the course is the right one then go and let the naysayers be damned. I think that's where we agree.

Where we diverge is the part where you state:

My wish is that the US and the world discovers that the "system" works regardless of the man on the horse.

I wish that as well but respectfully, history is replete with examples where the man on the horse has taken his system and his people (and often many other people) on the road to disaster and thereby has denied them the very peace and order that we all desire.

Like you, I think that a government that provides that peace and order with the least interference of it's citizens' liberties is the one we should strive for. However, I'm also a firm believer in the fact that there need to be limits. As a simple example, while I think every individual should be free to worship in their own way their religious practices should not give a licence to hurt or discriminate against any other individual.

The US, like us is a system where there are three branches of government which work in a equilibrium of checks and balances. When one branch goes off kilter, those checks and balances are diminished and the possibility that civil liberties will be curtailed or eliminated increases.

:cheers:

 

[Kirkhill]

FJAG - as you correctly identify, our difference is with the need for and the role of a leader. 

As I have said before, I am quite content with a manager.  I do not require a leader.  Especially a leader that wishes to lead me to a place I do not wish to go.  All to often the leader, the shepherd, resorts to his dogs and I find myself being driven against my will.  At that point my only recourse is to my conscience.

As to the quality of the manager, and the decisions they make - well that is why we limit the damage they can cause by limiting them to a few years. 

As to whether you agree with the decisions - that is why we have elections.  And why, in our country, parliament is not bound by any previous parliament's decisions.  That which is done can be undone.  Trudeau and Trump have both adequately demonstrated that.  Perhaps both Harper and Obama would have been better served finding common ground with the opposition - but that relies on having an opposition that is interested in working for the country and not just in playing silly bugger games.

To be blunt... I have come to be cynical of all proselytizers and time servers regardless of whether they are politicians, bureaucrats or non-governmental activists (of old we might have called them Methodists and other God-botherers).

In my opinion the best indication of the success of Trump and Brexit is the number of pissed off people - I enjoy the company.

 

[FJAG]

Still my favorite acting performance: Heath Ledger as the Joker in The Dark Knight and strangely appropriate to this presidency.

The Joker: Introduce a little anarchy. Upset the established order, and everything becomes chaos. I'm an agent of chaos. Oh, and you know the thing about chaos? It's fair!

  ;D

:cheers:

 

[Kirkhill]

Still my favorite acting performance: Heath Ledger as the Joker in The Dark Knight and strangely appropriate to this presidency.
  ;D

:cheers:

[cheers]

All hail a little chaos!

Do you know where deep sea fishermen find the biggest fish?  Where currents meet and the waters are most turbulent.  Nothing grows in stagnant water.  [

 

[dapaterson]

Nothing grows in stagnant water.  [

Not quite.  Pest plants that spread and take over and disrupt the natural cycle can thrive in those conditions.  (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nymphaeaceae)

Comparisons with bureaucracies starting in 3... 2... 1...

 

[Retired AF Guy]

It bloody well should.  No POTUS has brought that up, ever.  They deserve to be embarrassed, outed and shamed.  Why should one hegemony be the whipping boy when others are up to similar crap?  You're right, we'll never know what was brought up in private, however I would be willing to stake my next paycheque that what should have been said, wasn't.

You are right, the Saudi's are no little angels. While Trump was pointing the finger at the Iranians as being sponsors of terrorism (true), the Saudi's, by spreading their Wahhabi faith around the world, have probably more to blame for Islamic radicalism that than the Iranians have every been.

Plus, I don't think you will see many women in Saudi Arabia dressed like this (copyright Getty Images):

 

[Kirkhill]

Not quite.  Pest plants that spread and take over and disrupt the natural cycle can thrive in those conditions.  (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nymphaeaceae)

Comparisons with bureaucracies starting in 3... 2... 1...

If you're going to go all pedantic about it  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lemnoideae and https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/74/River_algae_Sichuan.jpg/800px-River_algae_Sichuan.jpg

And back to bureaucracies....

 

[Jed]

I'll still take him over anything else that was on offer.

I'm not big on "a man with a plan".  Nor am I overly fond of supra-national organizations.

A great big ditto on this comment.

 

[muskrat89]

He can't catch a break can he.

Air Force One left Saudi Arabia and flew to Israel. That has never happened before. Barely reported. https://www.bloomberg.com/politics/articles/2017-05-22/trump-s-saudi-arabia-israel-flight-set-to-break-symbolic-barrier

There is optimism on many sides regarding peace.


http://www.newsweek.com/trump-netanyahu-palestinians-israelis-one-state-solution-559143

http://www.timesofisrael.com/erekat-livni-optimistic-about-trumps-push-for-peace/

Egypt seems to think highly of him: http://thehill.com/policy/international/334430-egyptian-president-trump-capable-of-the-impossible


Listen, he certainly is a bit of a buffoon but some of you have NO objectivity. He could find a cure for cancer tomorrow and you would diminish it somehow. I didn't like President Obama. At all. But when he accomplished something noteworthy, I gave him credit for it.

Some of you are suffering from Trump Derangement Syndrome, methinks....

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/liberals-have-to-avoid-trump-derangement-syndrome/2017/04/13/81ff4a7a-2083-11e7-a0a7-8b2a45e3dc84_story.html?utm_term=.06f293ec1b1d

 

[Bird_Gunner45]

Given that Obama and Clinton sent Justine some of their top campaign strategists to help him get elected, I'm sure he and Butts knew plenty.

Perhaps if you want to be taken more seriously you can start by referring to the Prime Minister of your own country by his name and not "Justine"... than you can complain about sniping and adolescent behaviour.
:2c:

 

[mariomike]

Some of you are suffering from Trump Derangement System, methinks....

System or Syndrome?

After eight years of ODS? 

 

[muskrat89]

Thanks mariomike - not sure where I got "system", was thinking "syndrome" the whole time 

 

[mariomike]

Thanks mariomike - not sure where I got "system", was thinking "syndrome" the whole time

Cheers, Muskrat.

 

[Kirkhill]

I suggested to Remius that slagging the opposition doesn't do very much for the slagger beyond making it easier to underestimate the opposition.

It kind of cuts both ways.  Just sayin'

[cheers]

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Perhaps if you want to be taken more seriously you can start by referring to the Prime Minister of your own country by his name and not "Justine"... than you can complain about sniping and adolescent behaviour.
:2c:

Hmmmm. Not sure how you did it, but you've, obviously, mistaken me for someone that you think cares. While I respect the Office of the PM and what it stands for, I have not respected all our PMs. This current one goes beyond the pale of dislike. He is PM in name only. Other than that, he's a spoiled, childish, arrogant pissant. I don't like him, I don't like liebrals, I don't like communists, laurentian elitists, democrats, or socialists of any stripe. I don't like politicians that lie during campaigns and then fuck us off once elected. I don't like phony taxes, climate liars and environmental charlatans and terrorists, generational welfare and social services parasites that get my money, that I worked for, so they don't have to. The Tides Foundation and all it's anarchist branches, ANTIFA, BLM, and globalists. I don't like illegal migrants. I don't like organized religion or religious, cultish or political terrorists. I don't like that we don't have the death penalty. I don't like firearms registries of any sort or the criminal way legal, law abiding gun owners are harassed by the same government that refuses to keep people safe.** I'm sure you have a better understanding of me now. One last thing...................

Before your (Gerald) Butts puppet guts the Charter completely, I still have the right to free thought and speech and contrary to your closing line, I'll decide when and about what I want to complain about. Nobody else.

...and I'll be offended if you get offended. [

Double down  :2c: :2c:

** darn, how the heck did I miss the CBC and the rest of the liebral propaganda media machine.

 

[jmt18325]

Everything you don't like is obviously a fairy tale.  Liberals, environmental science, and feminists. All make believe.  Remember, there are no gay people in Iran, either.

 

[Jarnhamar]

Everything you don't like is obviously a fairy tale.  Liberals, environmental science, and feminists. All make believe.  Remember, there are no gay people in Iran, either.

Swing and a miss

 

[mariomike]

Trump is not precise in the words he chooses though I wish he was because it would alleviate much headache. 

When I read your post, I wondered if he had always been that way.

Other than what Dr. Harold Bornstein had to say, little is known about his physical and mental health.

This may, or may not, be of interest to the discussion,

May 23, 2017

Trump wasn’t always so linguistically challenged. What could explain the change?
https://www.statnews.com/2017/05/23/donald-trump-speaking-style-interviews/