U.S. Military Deserters in Canada Megathread

[Trinity]

One of the most important things to think about before donating is....

What is my donation used for? Does it all go to administration costs
and paperwork or does it go to the resisters who have no money
and need food for their family?

I looked briefly on that site but saw nothing.  It's important for
any organisation that takes donations to be transparent with their
donations so you know your money is going to where you think it is.

Sorry to be serious...  :-\

 

[Jarnhamar]

** I don't know if supporting a deserter of an ally would even show up on the radar screen here in Canada - even as a member of the CF, but, I do know that in the States anyone found encouraging someone to desert, giving aid to a deserter (or the seventeen thousand variations of that) is guilty of a felony. If you really do want to help those guys out http://www.resisters.ca they have a donate page,  or you could mail them a cheque ... **

I was just thinking the peace groups had pretty university girls and free food    ;D

 

[Zell_Dietrich]

I was just thinking the peace groups had pretty university girls and free food    ;D

Well it has been my experience that the peace groups have ... well I'll just say it hippies.  I'm not talking about hippies as the peace loving idealist,  I'm talking about hippies as the group that smells like homeless people during a prolonged garbage strike.  (Apparently harming mother earth isn't okay but harming the noses of everyone within 40 meters - more with a breeze - is okay.) :-X

And as for the girls... there are better places to pick up.  If you're DT toronto you can have good odds with basically anywhere... and that would come with way less drama

 

[FastEddy]

One of the most important things to think about before donating is....

What is my donation used for? Does it all go to administration costs
and paperwork or does it go to the resisters who have no money
and need food for their family?

I looked briefly on that site but saw nothing.  It's important for
any organisation that takes donations to be transparent with their
donations so you know your money is going to where you think it is.

Sorry to be serious...  :-\

And on a less serious note, who the sweet ...., cares whether they have food or money.

So far what I've read, these assholes are mostly single.

As to the point of your post, I'm trying to figure out if you are being, explanatory. condescending, sympathetic or supportive.

 

[Trinity]

As to the point of your post, I'm trying to figure out if you are being, explanatory. condescending, sympathetic or supportive.

Sorry.. my bad.  I did a course on Non Governmental Organisations years back.
Being with the church, I recognize the need to have donations to survive. However,
who wants to support an organization where they don't know that their money
goes to the goal as they claim.

Many organisations have huge overhead and very little actually makes it to
the intended cause.

I was more trying to explain that THIS organization is not transparent in their finances
and therefore, if you donate...  how do we know it doesn't go into someones personal
pocket or anywhere else? Thus, even IF i supported war resistors (which on the face
of it I don't), that I still wouldn't donate because I can't tell where my money would be going.

I don't support this organization.  It was more of an explanation of how they
aren't transparent and that doesn't lend credibility to their cause.

 

[proudnurse]

My thoughts and feelings, on US Army Deserters coming to Canada.....

The thing that annoys me mostly, when I read thier stories is they always say "Well, I joined the Military for College money" Did you not ever think that if you joined the Military the possibility of Deployment is not there? I would be sad to think, that ANY of mine or anyone elses tax dollars are going to be supporting them when they are HERE and their brothers and sisters in arms are deployed out.

And to think, while thier brothers and sisters in arms are deployed out, leaving thier own wives, husbands and children at home, to go and fight the good fight, while they are running here and trying to hide? What did they join the Military for in the first place? Only for college money? Did they not join because they wanted to serve thier country? Well, if the only reason they joined is for that college money, to me they did not earn the right to wear that uniform in the first place. I'm sad it's thier story that will possibly be the next feature Michael Moore movie.

Rebecca

 

[Trinity]

Well  Rebbecca

To some...  Honour, Duty, Loyalty, Service

are just words written on their commission scroll, or creed, or motto.

However, the rest of us actually understand and embrace what it means.
I would be pretty scared to go to the sandbox... but I'll go.  Why? A
few words I ascribed to 13 years ago.

I want to teach everyone a favourite saying of mine.

Words Live.

 

[Zell_Dietrich]

they are running here and trying to hide?

What did they join the Military for in the first place? Only for college money? Did they not join because they wanted to serve thier country? Well, if the only reason they joined is for that college money, to me they did not earn the right to wear that uniform in the first place.

**warning I might get flamed for this post** -and I don't mean the good kind with techno music and snappy outfits.

    Several of those former soldiers who are up here have already served on tours in Iraq, a few were wounded there and slated to go back. I'm sure that those who went to war (wounded or not) deserve the uniform while they wore it.  When they decided to stop then they have to take it off.  While I am sure there are a few who came up here because of the fear of getting shot,  there are those who came up here because they believe it is their moral duty to not support an illegal war of aggression or to take part in systematic human rights violations. If those who went there refuse to go back because of what they say they can not support,  I am far more inclined to believe them than for example a mainstream media network that receives millions from companies which make profits from that war.  I think the phrase I heard as a child was " Getting killed sucks, Getting killed for something you know is a lie is horrible, killing for something you know is a lie is true death." 

    Yes, in order to provide security for the country the armed forces must accept the orders of the command.  Go there, shoot these people,  go there shovel snow.  An order given should be an order executed. If a country has a military force that picks and chooses which orders it wants to follow,  it isn't a country for very long.  It is necessary for a country to have an army that follows orders, without question, without hesitation.  The exception to this is when the orders are illegal.

International laws do not excuse a soldier from his actions because s/he was only following orders. Now I know in Canada we've changed our laws to try and stop  Americans from claiming refugee status,  but, unfortunately for those who want to give these guys the boot, we still need to be compliant with international laws the obligate us to give refuge to those who dissent from illegal acts. ( http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/I-2.5/245769.html    <-- summary not the official version)

 

[Trinity]

The "soldiers" I use the word loosely, are criminals and fugitives under U.S. law, no matter how you spin it! 

YUP

No matter how SAD or empathetic we may be to their situation (if you are or not), I think Baker is bang on.
If these people have justified reasons for not going then they have a fair and impartial court to explain their case to.

 

[Red 6]

Zell: I respect your position, but these folks volunteered to serve a specific length in the armed forces. Nobody forced them to enlist in the first place. The armed forces is built on a bedrock of discipline. There is a bigger argument embedded in some of your posts: Is the war in Iraq a legal one under international law and customs? That's a good question, but it doesn't excuse or mitigate the actions of a service member who decides to just quit without any authorization.

Most deserters were a lousy Soldiers to begin with. Somebody in my platoon deserted right before we went overseas in 90 for the Gulf. He was a zero before he left, and other than the fact we had an empty slot on our platoon roster, nobody even missed him. That's one of the little secrets of most of these people. They were lousy Soldiers to begin with. And then they figured, "I'll quit and go to Canada where I'll get some sympathy."

It doesn't matter whether or not they already served in combat or got wounded. There are plenty of service members who wear Purple Hearts and are serving in subsequent combat deployments. Receiving honor as a veteran takes committment to do the right thing up to the day your service is complete. It takes maturity to be a Soldier. It shows a lack of same when a person decides to break his/her enlistment contract without any authorization. If they want to leave, good riddance.

 

[amberaston]

Although I agree that this person shouldn't be allowed to flee to another country to avoid the commitment he made in swearing to defend our country, I have to wonder how would all of the many Americans already serving in Iraq or anywhere else feel to have this kind of guy next to them. As I understand it, there is a faith that each soldier has that the guy next to him has his back?  When my son goes I know he will do what he has to do and he is fully aware that most likely he will go to Iraq, but I wonder how well would he be able to do his job with someone like this next to him.  At the first sign of trouble will he bail out on him or when his life depends on him will he be there?  To me our soldiers already have too much to think and worry about while deployed.  I don't think he should be forced to go, but he swore an oath and then took it back and to me that is criminal under the circumstances.  I don't think he should be free to be a burden on another country either. I think we should just let his fellow soldiers take care of him and show him what  happends when you back out on your word. I find him to be a disgrace.

 

[poko]

Nobody but a gun to there head and said sing on the doted line. Do your time if you like it keep going if not get out.
Canada should round them up and send them where they came from and face the consequence to there action. I think buddy had a point there I'm sure nobody would want them guy next to them in battle but there always spot for dumb dumb like pealing potato's. 

 

[Zell_Dietrich]

Red 6

     That was an excellent post. I am kind of embarrassed that you took the time to read through some of my posts on this site.  Honestly I'm not terribly opinionated, I just really hate to see one sided discussions without real debate - hence why I try to challenge assertions, fundamental assumptions and on a few threads play devils advocate.  Yes, technically the war in Iraq is legal under international law. I don't believe it to be a war of aggression or conquest. Respectfully, if I - as poorly informed as I am - can pull the rug out from underneath an argument it shows how poor that argument is. And on an aside, if Canada jumped into help out in Iraq and I got sent, I would go (and feel privileged that I get to serve, which is how I feel now).

Back to the thread:

     How one enlisted into the armed forces (volunteer or conscription), why one enlisted ( desire to serve or other ) doesn't matter when it comes to ones duty.  Yes a country needs a reliable armed forces, one that will do what needs to be done when it needs to be done. Like I said, the chain of command needs to have the ability to command unquestionably. 

     This ability needs to be curtailed when it comes to illegal orders.  What is the litmas test to see if an order is illegal?  Good question (with a really really long answer) but ultimately the decision to follow or not rests with the individual soldier.  S/he needs to decide if they can follow that order or if it is illegal.  I can't say I really agree with the deserters up here, however I'm sure there is at least one or two of them who honestly believe they are making the moral choice.  Because they face persecution for their moral beliefs they have more than a very good case for refugee status.  I know the old one good Apple in a bunch argument, but I'd rather see 200 wussy guys (not to imply anyone of those men are wussies I'm just saying) get a free ride than to see one person of good conscience thrown in jail.

     I brought up the fact that some of these guys had served and were wounded only to diffuse the "sniveling cowards who never earned the uniform" argument. I must differ to your assessment as to the quality of the soldiers who are leaving,  in my unit we actively try to drum out people like that.  If a person in my unit 'wouldn't be missed' that's usually seen as a sign we are going to have a fresh face around.

     With politics as they are right now,  Canada does NOT want to give blanket refugee status to deserters.  However, under our laws we can't do anything else.  The solution is typically Canadian, do the paperwork really really slowly and hope that when it is finally through the system the result wont matter anymore.  (Refugee claims taking 10-15 years to process -  new meaning to the phrase 'moving at the speed of unionised government') And of course both sides complaining about the slow processing time, but both glad of it.

Edited: Removed stereotypical reasons for joining.

 

[FastEddy]

Thanks, 10-4

Cheers.

 

[FastEddy]

Zell: I respect your position, but these folks volunteered to serve a specific length in the armed forces. Nobody forced them to enlist in the first place. The armed forces is built on a bedrock of discipline. There is a bigger argument embedded in some of your posts: Is the war in Iraq a legal one under international law and customs? That's a good question, but it doesn't excuse or mitigate the actions of a service member who decides to just quit without any authorization.

Most deserters were a lousy Soldiers to begin with. Somebody in my platoon deserted right before we went overseas in 90 for the Gulf. He was a zero before he left, and other than the fact we had an empty slot on our platoon roster, nobody even missed him. That's one of the little secrets of most of these people. They were lousy Soldiers to begin with. And then they figured, "I'll quit and go to Canada where I'll get some sympathy."

It doesn't matter whether or not they already served in combat or got wounded. There are plenty of service members who wear Purple Hearts and are serving in subsequent combat deployments. Receiving honor as a veteran takes committment to do the right thing up to the day your service is complete. It takes maturity to be a Soldier. It shows a lack of same when a person decides to break his/her enlistment contract without any authorization. If they want to leave, good riddance.

Excellent post. But I also feel they should be in a Stockade serving out the remainder of their Hitch and/or Sentence, instead of collecting Welfare in Canada.

Regardless of their Worth, Reasons or Circumstances, they should be punished.

Sorry for the rant.

 

[Red 6]

I agree with you there, Eddy. No argument at all.

 

[medaid]

Eddy +2

 

[Trinity]

Regardless of their Worth, Reasons or Circumstances, they should be punished.

I can't say regardless.... 

I'm sure some of legitmate LEGAL reasons.... not many though.
If someone developed severe mental deficiency... I think that would be
a valid excuse to go AWOL.  Now..  I'm not trying to defend anyone or
say they're all ill... Simply saying a select few could possibly have a
good legal reason that none of us can forsee.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Had they refused to go and stayed to faces the consequences, then I could have some respect for them. The more I learn about this guy the more I realize that avoiding consequences is a pattern that runs through his life, he decided to have 3 kids even though he didn't have a job!

 

[Victor17]

I can't say regardless.... 

Must agree with Trinity on this one. Its too easy to just blanket the statement and send them all home. I have no doubts some of them have what any of us could view as a valid reason. The details remain to be seen with the current bias of the media (and fear of not constantly saying "i support our troops" to actually address an issue on the matter).