U.S. Military Deserters in Canada Megathread

[scoutfinch]

(1)  Canadian law requires that due process, including a determination under a refugee application, be carried out prior to extradition.  That is the application of Canadian law to which I was referring.  Conflicts of law doctrines would require this to be completed prior to meeting international obligations.

(2)  1812 was almost 200 years ago.  Canada didn't exist as a country.  So what the Brits did then is entirely irrelevant to me with respect to this discussion.

(3)  Since we are mixing apples and oranges and then comparing them willy-nilly in our discussion of treaties signed between our two countries, how 'bout you guys give us our $5 billion back from softwood lumbar tariffs and will send you back your two a** holes that deserted.  Deal? 

By the way, we see eye to eye on the desertion question.  I have no doubt you will get these clowns back.  What you do with them is up to you.... just make sure it is painful, okay? 8)

 

[karl28]

How about instead of 5 billion cash for the deserters we get 5 billion in arms deals get the CF some new equipment  to replacing aging equipment. Probably wont happen but its just a thought .

 

[scoutfinch]

For the sake of accuracy, the deserter to which I was referring above is Joshua Key.  For particulars on Key, see http://www.cbcunlocked.com/artman/publish/article_243.shtml

And for the record, he was *loose* in the US for 14 months after deserting while on leave from Iraq before coming to Canada.  It doesn't seem the US had a lot of interest in arresting him before he came across the border.  :.  So, I think there may be an element of "thou protesteth too much" when the US starts screaming for us to return on the basis of the violation of international treaties. 

Hell, I think the States should be grateful because atleast now they know where to find 'em.

edited to add another link to information on Key:  http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20060330/war_deserter_cp_060330/20060330?hub=Canada

 

[scoutfinch]

I should note that Key is the only deserter to have seen combat.  I do not think this will change his refugee claim although it may give him grounds for a appeal of any decision not falling in his favour whereas the others will all fall in the same class of claimant.  Once the one claim is finally rejected, the rest will follow in fairly short order although it may take a trip to the Supreme Court of Canada before it is done.

 

[HItorMiss]

Are we not bound by NATO law's to not harbour deserter's from allied Nations?

I mean if I went AWOL from the CF and say tried to do anything in a NATO country I'm pretty sure I could expect to see that countires MP's arrive shortly with Canadian officials in tow to return my butt to the good old True North strong and free, and I would say rightly so.

 

[William Webb Ellis]

OK, i just listened to Sounds Like Canada while driving in the car. They interviewed another (to use CBC's term) "war resistor". 

Why is this fella and others like him on the airwaves on my tax dollars?  The CBC is becoming more transparent in it's view on the war in Iraqi and by extension the war in Afghanistan.  This fella, I believe his name was Darryl, said he always wanted to fight in a war....Well he go this chance and appeared not to like it.

The CBC also had the gall to ask him his opinion on Canadian troops in Afghanistan...guess what he is opposed.

The CBC is really ticking me off.....

 

[scoutfinch]

The problem is that there are two legal regimes at play here at the same time and the two regimes have conflicting results:  Canada's domestic refugee law and Canada's international commitments resulting from treaties.  The issue is which law is Canada to follow and in what order:  domestic law (due process during the refugee claimant process) or international law (extradition or NATO commitments). 

The principles of conflicts of law for these types of problems suggest that Canada is obliged to deal with the domestic law process prior to dealing with the international legal issue in these circumstances.

 

[HItorMiss]

W.W.E:

I heard the same show on CBC this morning, I was literally yelling at me radio (like that would do any good)

I think I will write to that show and ask where do they get off asking a deserter about his vies on our troops and their deployments..seeing as they have the BALL'S to do their job with no complaint. The gall of the that thing to even suggest he knows what he is talking about has me riled up even now.

Shame on the CBC for the tripe they just put on the airways.

Now back to the topic at hand:

Why should domestic law take precedent over international treaties?

If we saw fit to sign that agreement we should be bound by it over our own federal law.

 

[scoutfinch]

That is problematic because the fundamental principles of international relations would suggest that Canada should make decisions with the intent to only advance its own interests.  Permitting international obligations to *trump* domestic law results in a greater commitment to the interests of other countries than to the laws of  Canada.

At the end of the day, these deserters will be returned to the United States to face justice there.  In the meantime, I do not want the integrity of the Canadian legal system to be impunged for the sake of pandering to American political interests.  As I mentioned earlier, Joshua Keys was in the US for 14 months after deserting before he came to Canada.  The US only started making noise about getting him back after he came here.  It has been made into a political matter, not a legal or defence matter by all sides involved.

 

[HItorMiss]

Let's be honest Finch, had Keye's stayed quiet upon his arrival in Canada the US would still not know where he was, If he was in the US for 14 months I would hazard a guess that he laid low, it's not easy to find a needle in the haystack Finch. I would not say that they showed no intrest in finding him.

In fact I would say they did what all MP's do they go to your known areas of intrest and ask around they don;t find you they put you on the book's and wait for a lead, If I went AWOL tomorrow I'm pretty sure I could stay in Canada a fairly long time before popping up on any radar's; so long as I didn't go where expected or have been known to go in the past.



As for trumping Canadian Law, that precedent was set by the Hague long ago, If I can deport a War criminal to face charges regardless of the hosting nations Law's on the matter then I am sure Canada could deport (with armed escort) these deserters with little fuss.

Also again I'll say if we signed a treaty saying "If X happens our response will be Y" then I would say we are obligated to do what we put on that paper regardless of our Federal Law's.

That is problematic because the fundamental principles of international relations would suggest that Canada should make decisions with the intent to only advance its own interests. 

My point exactly! we signed said agreement to advance our intrest, now we have to pony up for whatever that bought us in the past, If I were the US Govt I would be taking Canada to task for this in NATO and other areas...In fact I'm surprised they have not and that our Allies haven't either.

 

[Mick]

As for trumping Canadian Law, that precedent was set by the Hague long ago, If I can deport a War criminal to face charges regardless of the hosting nations Law's on the matter then I am sure Canada could deport (with armed escort) these deserters with little fuss.

Fact of the matter is, when the Government of Canada signs or ratifies any treaty, it must issue a domestic Canadian law in order to comply with the treaty, unless a suitable law that complies with the treaty already exists.  Nothing "trumps" anything.  Canadian law provides the mechanisms with which the Government honours its treaty obligations.  International laws only work if domestic laws comply with them...Canada is merely doing what our domestic laws require.

So, if Canadian Law requires that these dudes be given time in front of a Canadian tribunal or what-not, so be it...at the end of the day they'll be sent packing, as soon as the Government is satisfied that it's covered all of the bases.  And given the Refugee Board's initial Hinzman decision, looks like the Government ain't buyin it.

BTW, I have no sympathy for these guys: they knew exactly what they were VOLUNTEERING for..."don't let the door hit you on the ass..."

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_PrintFriendly&c=Article&cid=1146779411922&call_pageid=970599119419

Canada should welcome U.S. deserters, Layton says
May 5, 2006. 01:00 AM
BRUCE CAMPION-SMITH
OTTAWA BUREAU


OTTAWA—American deserters dodging military duty in Iraq share Canadian values and should be welcomed in this country, NDP Leader Jack Layton says.

"It makes a lot of sense to welcome these young people, recognize that they've taken a position that's exactly the same position that Canadians took," he said yesterday. "It would be inappropriate to send them back in my view ... We're glad they've chosen our country."

Layton urged the Conservative government to grant sanctuary to young soldiers, noting Canada became a safe haven for Americans seeking to avoid the Vietnam draft more than 30 years ago.

"We should be looking at it," he said. "These young people are courageous individuals. They've made a decision of conscience."

Layton denied that it would upset ties with the U.S. if Canada suddenly became a place of refuge for those fleeing that country's unpopular war.

"There are tens of thousands of people and their families now all across our country who came to us in an earlier period around the Vietnam War. I don't think that disrupted relations between the two countries."

His comments followed an Ottawa visit by Cindy Sheehan, who has become an outspoken anti-war campaigner after the death of her son Casey in Iraq. She used a Parliament Hill news conference yesterday to urge Canada to offer sanctuary to U.S. deserters.

When Casey expressed his misgivings about fighting in Iraq before his deployment, Sheehan offered to drive him to Canada. He was in Iraq five days before being killed in April 2004.

Responding to Sheehan's pitch yesterday, Immigration Minister Monte Solberg told reporters: "If Mrs. Sheehan has a bone to pick with the U.S. administration about the war in Iraq she should take that to Washington. It'll be Canadians who decide Canadian immigration policy."

I wonder if he realizes how abhorent his remarks are to every CF Member past and present? Way to go Jack... :

EDIT- modified to add link.

 

[Trinity]

OTTAWA—American deserters dodging military duty in Iraq share Canadian values and should be welcomed in this country, NDP Leader Jack Layton says.

I admit. I voted NDP.

I will NEVER AGAIN vote NDP.

 

[Big Foot]

Wow, so Jack is saying that we value busting a contract just to get out of doing something our job requires of us? I wonder if he would be so supportive if any member of the CF decided to desert because they didn't want to go to say, Afghanistan? This man is all the more reason to never vote NDP.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Yappy little ghetto dog.

 

[military granny]

I wonder if they would find anything in his head if they did a CAT scan, or if would be just empty space?

 

[Chimo]

Jack needs to get his head out of his fourth point of contact. We, Canadians,  should be immediately turning these felons over to the appropriate US authority for prosecution.

They fully understood the hazards of their chosen profession when signing on the line. Time to live up to the responsibility you made to the country and her citizens.

 

[vonGarvin]

Jack refers to these deserters as heroes.  They are cowards.  They would be courageous and true to their word if they stood up in their own country and said "Yes, I volunteered of my own free will to defend America.  This war in Iraq is not in line with the defense of America and I will not participate.  You may try me and judge me, but I will stand by my decision and live with the consequences."
Since they ran away, claiming to be in a similar situation as the draftees in the 1960s and 1970s during the Vietnam War, they are nothing but faceless cowards.

 

[HDE]

Jack has gotta play to his audience :boring:

I saw the press conference with the Sheehan lady and whatever folks are putting her out in public to make their point should be ashamed of themselves,

 

[military granny]

Layton urged the Conservative government to grant sanctuary to young soldiers, noting Canada became a safe haven for Americans seeking to avoid the Vietnam draft more than 30 years ago.

"We should be looking at it," he said. "These young people are courageous individuals. They've made a decision of conscience."

If this is what he calls courage then he had better do his best to cover up that yellow streak down his back.