U.S. air giant woos Ottawa with twin deal for planes

[tmbluesbflat]

not when it comes to heavy lift, in choppers the russians are at least equal to anybody and right as we speak the US is investigating the counter rotate props of the Kamov that negate the need for a tail rotor.
The US gov stopped a company called Skycat of Santa Maria California from dealing with anybody except US companies they did that right after 9/11, stopping the potential deals with my company.
However the technology is actually British. Much intrigue!

 

[tmbluesbflat]

a lot of American technology comes from sources other than US, metallurgy for example is largely overlooked in north america these days, at one time Canada was a leader in the field, but after the Arrow disaster it went by the board. It was the fact that we had great metalurgists that made that craft viable. Recently it was shown how two US companies were to compete for the next generation of fighter aircraft. Only because of Russian metallurgy were either manufacturer able to reach the required specs. Do not sell other nations manufacture and design etc short, but rather look to those Canadian companies chosen to utilize the foreign design. The FN rifle is a classic example as is the current little jeep sized vehicle and of course there are not to my knowledge any example of any successes when we do business like that. Is there anybody out there familiar with the original concepts of NATO when it came to arms and equipment etc?

 

[Garry]

The Russians have made some amazing things fly- but don‘t confuse their ability to fly with their ability to fly safely.

Yes, the Russian twin-counter rotating helo‘s used for logging in BC carry huge loads- but they do not have an enviable safety record.

The MIG fighters have tremendous airframes and some neat designs (like being able to operate off of gravel!) but they cannot carry fuel for extended missions, their flight controls are very heavy inducing fatigue, their engines are replaced after 100 hours...some of their missiles are truly amazing, but generally Russian avionics are horrid.

Not my intent to bore you with a litany of facts, suffice it to say I am convinced that the efficacy and safety of North American airspace products are clearly superior to any other continents production.

Chers-Garry

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

Didn‘t Russia make the largest cargo plane in the world?

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

I would prefer not to rely on the Russians for any equipment especially down the road when spare parts might be an issue and trying to get spare parts from our allies might be a problem in times of crisis.

 

[tmbluesbflat]

the point is this first the Sky Cat and Aerocat are North American and British design! The Kamov with , a little effort could be Russian design Canadian built. I am unaware of any unfavourable safety factors in regard to the Kamov. I am however familiar with the fact that the agencies responsible are at odds when it comes to certifying some uses, but that of course is what happened to the Arrow Jetliner as you may recall.
I mentioned Vancouver Island Helicopters in an earlier comment, they have used this craft in very heavy work for a couple of years now. They are a rather large company, if there is a better craft out there they would most likely not use Kamov!

 

[ringo_mountbatten]

It would be next to impossible for the Canadian military to buy Russian. It is a political nightmare waiting to happen. The logistics of training among many other things, precludes any purchase anyways. We are a NATO country and that means most of the equipment that we purchase should be interoperable within the alliance. Either way the type of Kamov used for logging is just not a wise choice for military operations anyway. The fiscal reality that the lilitary faces would not allow them to buy a helo that had no real troop carrying capacity. For the suggestion that the helo could be produced in Canada, so can any other that Canada choose to operate, thanks to a Canada being a technolgically advance country. One need only look as far as Montreal and see Bell Textron to see how easy it would be.

As for the airship, the only thing I could see that replacing is sea going vessels. The speed of the machine alone does not allow for it to be used as a airlift platform. The bigger one is probably years away anyway and will spend years in research and devolpement, if it even gets to the production stage. To get in on the ground floor of unproven projects is just another way DND waste it‘s precious budget. Why should the Canadian soldier be the one who loses out if this project does not pan out?

 

[tmbluesbflat]

Please read and try to understand, I believe that I am using relatively unsophisticated English, I said tha the entire engineering and design team of Russians with one or two exceptions, is now resident in Canada, do you understand, need I elaborate???

 

[tmbluesbflat]

I believe the Kamove rigged for passengers could handle I think 20.
If you pay attention, I said that the various airships can travel at around 100 kilometers per hour, do not require a runway etc, can land anywhere, land, sea you name it. They are immense enough to carry a battalion (the 1000 Tonner) in comfort wth all their gear etc, they can be rigged to cover 8000 miles at a jump and can go further by adding more fuel a little les cargo. they can be totally self sufficient supprt wise ie; they can be used as temp living quarters etc etc. You would require more than twenty hercs to even come close to filling the bill. By the way they have been cleared to build by the US Military.

 

[tmbluesbflat]

The only real objection some people will have about the Kamov is that the grease coming from the current target choppers in just enormous, the Feds have already put up 1/2 billion when Chretien got elected and cancelled the previous order. The other is that the Kamov is vastly superior in so many ways, but guess what? It would come in at about 10% of the cost of the junker they trying to get the country to accept. Several stakeholders in that multinational company have expessed misgivings, and the craft has had an enormous number of "incidents"

 

[ringo_mountbatten]

Plain and simply airships are not viable solutions for an air force. Airships have always been used as a second option to seacraft. They are too slow and too big to be used as anything less than a replacement for a ship. They hold no tactical value whatever to the air force due to that size and speed. The air force is in the business of getting cargo to their destinations fast not in a week. As for your asertion that the US military is interested in them, that is not a surprise considering their defence budget and ours. They can afford to throw away some bucks on a something that might never evolve from the drawing board. Anyway the US is looking at them to replace their current sealift capabilty and not their airlifters.

As for the Kamovs I believe my previous posts have said all I need to, but you can add to that, that the infrastructure is just not there in Canada to support them, no matter how many Russian engineers are in Canada. They are just not an option for the Canadian military. Ask any military helo pilot if they think that Kamov is a viable solution for Canada. I am sure their answers would be very much the same.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Originally posted by tmbluesbflat:
[qb] I believe the Kamove rigged for passengers could handle I think 20.
If you pay attention, I said that the various airships can travel at around 100 kilometers per hour, do not require a runway etc, can land anywhere, land, sea you name it. They are immense enough to carry a battalion (the 1000 Tonner) in comfort wth all their gear etc, they can be rigged to cover 8000 miles at a jump and can go further by adding more fuel a little les cargo. they can be totally self sufficient supprt wise
ie; they can be used as temp living quarters etc etc. You would require more than twenty hercs to even come close to filling the bill. By the way they have been cleared to build by the US Military. [/qb]

I have watched these helicopters at work and am truely impressed by them, i don‘t believe any have been lost in this very dangerous work. these helo‘s have been a big worry to the US helicopter companies as they are direct competation and do many of the jobs better and cost less. Russian Helo‘s being run under North American safety standards have done very well, can‘t say the same of the Griffion.

 

[tmbluesbflat]

The man says the airforce needs airplanes that cannot handle one tank and its equip, let alone 20 tanks etc one herc loaded might handle a coy and some equip, not a battalion, it takes longer to load and stow gear on a herc than it would be to load, (drive on drive off) gear up and fly 500 miles with the Skycat 1000, The herc would be just getting of the ground with part of what would be needed. The reason I am familiar with these figures is that I had been in the process of bidding on contract with companies such as BHP Billiton in the northern diamond play where they spend months building airports and highways etc etc costing billions, most of which is wasted, and they can‘t build one just anywhere, right now there are probably a dozen sites they would love to drill, but can‘t get to with either trucks or aircraft except of course choppers but then they have to carry equipment like cats etc in pieces. The logistical advantage with this technology is so great as to be no contest, the best aircraft can do is fly the distance quicker, with some of the load. This has been dicussed at some length by senior executives of some of the worlds largest mining companies whose experience in transport and heavy lift leave most military people in the dust, don‘t forget many are ex service people themselves and understand all to well the current shortcomings!

 

[tmbluesbflat]

I spoke to a fellow today who is familiar with the Kamov, he told me it is a pilots dream come true to fly and is vastly superior to anything else that he‘s flown. He is currently flying in Alaska doing survey for oil companies and told me the yanks are obssesed with aquiring this technologie., to the point of offering big bucks to the designers and engineers to move to US and build them. Another point no accidents with the craft to date, none! Can‘t say that about almost any other chopper made!

 

[Infanteer]

Out of interest, and a bit of a curve ball, but how would you evaluate the purchase of the Cormorant...it is a very snazzy airframe, yet its European.

Does its non-Continental status mean future problems for our potentially growing Cormorant fleet?

 

[ringo_mountbatten]

I done trying to explain why airships are not a feasible solution for the air force‘s transports woes. I have explained that it is a rememdy for the future Navy sealift requirement...if it comes to fruition, but that is a big if. As for Kamovs they are not and will not be in the running for any future Canadian helo purchase for a while, they might someday, but not while the political landscape is the way it is.

As for the Cormorant, there is a big difference between built to NATO specs for other allies and Russian built equipment. When it was designed it was the only helo that had everything Canada needed in one airframe. Of course now there are other options from the US and Europe that might be selected to replace the Sea King.

 

[tmbluesbflat]

the point is that the Kamov can be built in North America to Nato specs.
Ships don‘t do well in the Arctic Nor do Hercs They need landing strips!, they are only marginal in desert, and rough field conditions, this is not Naval shipping it is Military transport for and from anyplace on Earth, with all the load and 100kph is not bad!

 

[ringo_mountbatten]

This is really a waste of my time to keep posting, you just don‘t get what I am saying at all. You obviously do not understand tactical and strategic airlift and why airships are not part of that no matter how much I post that airships are not a replacement for airlift, especially hercs. I understand you think that these airships would be a good replacement because you look at specs and are wowed by them, however, it will be years before they are even off the drawing board, if at all. Canada simply does not have the finacial wherewithal to invest a sum of defence dollars for something that might never come to fruition. Diamond companies and the US military obviously have more bucks than Canada has to throw around.

As for the Kamovs just because they are good logging company helos it does not mean they would be good for Canadian military use. Secondly it is not politically feasible for Canada to purchase Russian helos for the military. Any helo Canada buys can be built in Canada, the Kamov is not special in that regard. I don‘t think that comfort level of the military to buy Russian is all that high and that it would be met with a great enthusiasm is wrong. Pilots like to fly things they trust, and generally they trust things used by their allies, and helos built by people who were not there enemies 20 years ago.

 

[tmbluesbflat]

Canadian military Brains are why we have inadequate equipment today. We have paid far higher prices for absolute junk from our so called allies. Who generally smile in our faces and piss on our boots! The money wasted on things like redesign on the new destroyers, the so called economical jeep type vehicle. to name just a couple, the list however is large! The fact that minig companies have money for this sort of thing demonstrats the wisdom of having intelligent people making these kind of investments decisions, they have no cash or time to waste!

 

[Colin Parkinson]

As for the Kamovs just because they are good logging company helos it does not mean they would be good for Canadian military use. Secondly it is not politically feasible for Canada to purchase Russian helos for the military. Any helo Canada buys can be built in Canada, the Kamov is not special in that regard. I don‘t think that comfort level of the military to buy Russian is all that high and that it would be met with a great enthusiasm is wrong. Pilots like to fly things they trust, and generally they trust things used by their allies, and helos built by people who were not there enemies 20 years ago. [/QB]

Well I do agree with your points on the political level and concede that it is unlikely for us to buy a Russian design. The Kamov design is based on the counter roatating blade concept, which does away with the tail rotor and all of it‘s issues and removes the loss of some 15% of the total engine shaft horsepower required to run the tail rotor. Besides being used in the heavy lift helicopter, the Russians also use this in their KA-50 & 52 attack helicopter. the KA-52 is the only helicopter in the world to be equipped with ejection seats! Another benifit of this design is the reduced width of the rotor, allowing it to operate in more confined spaces. Canada would do well to bring this technolgy into the North American market, it certainly isn‘t the first Russian helicopter design to make the transition!

By the way I agree with your comments on airships, when viewed as a whole the concept does not work well, remember the R101?