Trust in our Institutions

[YZT580]

Most emergency responses have to start locally, where the situational knowledge is best.

Pandemics by definition are not local.

but the sharp edge of the response is local. All responses, even for COVID, are administered at the local level. National or provincial can mandate certain processes or be the go-to agency for resources as mentioned above but it is your neighbours who will be tasked with compliance. So collaborate with the provinces to identify the processes and supplies, establish a caretaker process and then leave it.
Consider, we have requirements annually for systems in place what with floods and fires but the response from OW always appears to be too little and too late. So buy the 515's we should have ordered a dozen when DeHavilland first said they would open an assembly line. Buy bulldozers and RIBs and any other gear necessary for flood response and train up the crews. Those processes don't require a committee. Leave health to the provinces. Even a pandemic is simply a local problem in a lot of locales simultaneously

 

[Brad Sallows]

Even a pandemic is simply a local problem in a lot of locales simultaneously

Pretty much every problem decomposes into small pieces, and the execution has to be decentralized. But disjointed responses are no way to deal with a pandemic. A thing about most public emergencies - which is playing out in the southeast US now - is that resources from all over can easily be concentrated with at worst inconveniences to those temporarily deprived of the services of their "local" assets (eg. line crews). During a pandemic, resources have to be allocated carefully.

 

[mariomike]

but the sharp edge of the response is local.

Locally ( municipal ), we have HUSAR CAN-TF3.

CAN-TF3 is operated by Toronto Fire Services, in collaboration with Toronto Police and Toronto Paramedic Services.

CAN-TF3 can respond to situations outside of the city, and offers provincial, national and international assistance.

 

[Furniture]

Locally ( municipal ), we have HUSAR CAN-TF3.

CAN-TF3 is operated by Toronto Fire Services, in collaboration with Toronto Police and Toronto Paramedic Services.

CAN-TF3 can respond to situations outside of the city, and offers provincial, national and international assistance.

It's one of the six locally led, and federally supported HUSAR teams in Canada.

One of the few things Canada seems to have done right with emergency preparedness.

 

[kratz]

Pretty much every problem decomposes into small pieces, and the execution has to be decentralized. But disjointed responses are no way to deal with a pandemic. A thing about most public emergencies - which is playing out in the southeast US now - is that resources from all over can easily be concentrated with at worst inconveniences to those temporarily deprived of the services of their "local" assets (eg. line crews). During a pandemic, resources have to be allocated carefully.

A couple of the tenets of disaster and emergency management is to foster collaboration and cooperation between all stakeholders, prior to an event. When this is achieved, local responses are more effective and potential hazards are greatly reduced. Recent Canadian experience demonstrates we benefiting from our current response , either by accident of fortune. Compared to American disasters, we are experiencing substantially lower loss of life and less damages...so far. One example referred to last week was how the annual evacuation exercise assisted in the recent Jasper AB wildfires. In this example, local residents and responders knew what to do, saving more lives, rather than waiting hours for others to arrive from outside to assist.

The discussion last week centred on holding current organisations accountable for their responsibilities instead of creating more bloat. For more then 20 years, the emergency stockpile has been mismanaged, with no modern logistics or technology introduced, despite several reports making these very commendations. Instead of a new organization, one suggestion is to follow FEMA's "on-call" contract method. While the discussion acknowledged "on-call" contracts are an expensive tool, they provide solutions to some of the issues being argued for continuing to do what we are already doing.

 

[YZT580]

Pretty much every problem decomposes into small pieces, and the execution has to be decentralized. But disjointed responses are no way to deal with a pandemic. A thing about most public emergencies - which is playing out in the southeast US now - is that resources from all over can easily be concentrated with at worst inconveniences to those temporarily deprived of the services of their "local" assets (eg. line crews). During a pandemic, resources have to be allocated carefully.

I don't deny it in fact your statement is 100% correct. But it doesn't require a federal bureaucracy to draft plans and then re-draft plans and then, re- well you get the point. If you establish a department, once it completes the first go-round it should self-destruct but if

 

[lenaitch]

but the sharp edge of the response is local. All responses, even for COVID, are administered at the local level. National or provincial can mandate certain processes or be the go-to agency for resources as mentioned above but it is your neighbours who will be tasked with compliance. So collaborate with the provinces to identify the processes and supplies, establish a caretaker process and then leave it.
Consider, we have requirements annually for systems in place what with floods and fires but the response from OW always appears to be too little and too late. So buy the 515's we should have ordered a dozen when DeHavilland first said they would open an assembly line. Buy bulldozers and RIBs and any other gear necessary for flood response and train up the crews. Those processes don't require a committee. Leave health to the provinces. Even a pandemic is simply a local problem in a lot of locales simultaneously

The sharp edge is, at least initially, always local. It often starts out as organic (individual residents, neighbourhoods, etc.) then gets more formalized as matters progress. The responsibility to take a lead depends on the type of emergency. A pandemic and similar events, flips responsibility on its head. For things like a weather event, responsibility is initially local, and may well stay at that level with upper level support or escalate. A pandemic is, by its nature, multi-jurisdictional and demands an upper-level lead. Delivery may well be at the local level, by we can't expect individual municipalities or health units to negotiate for vaccines, for example.

 

[Kirkhill]

Helicopters! Helicopters! Helicopters!

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2024/10/02/fl_state_guardsman_what_the_media_is_telling_you_about_helene_is_complete_bullsht_politicians_dont_have_a_clue_and_are_lying.html

Oh. And money!

Hurricane Helene aftermath: More than 200 dead as hope fades in search for survivors

At least 200 people are known to have died as a result of the carnage and destruction wrought by Hurricane Helene since it made landfall in Florida a week ago.

www.nbcnews.com

 

[YZT580]

The sharp edge is, at least initially, always local. It often starts out as organic (individual residents, neighbourhoods, etc.) then gets more formalized as matters progress. The responsibility to take a lead depends on the type of emergency. A pandemic and similar events, flips responsibility on its head. For things like a weather event, responsibility is initially local, and may well stay at that level with upper level support or escalate. A pandemic is, by its nature, multi-jurisdictional and demands an upper-level lead. Delivery may well be at the local level, by we can't expect individual municipalities or health units to negotiate for vaccines, for example.

absolutely right and in full agreement. So plan it, budget for it, buy the resources needed. What I am saying is you don't need a bureaucracy to do it, in fact, the bureaucracy will hinder the results.

 

[Kirkhill]

absolutely right and in full agreement. So plan it, budget for it, buy the resources needed. What I am saying is you don't need a bureaucracy to do it, in fact, the bureaucracy will hinder the results.

You are arguing over "The Commons".

The Commons were supposed to be held by everyone. They were in fact held by none and exploited by everyone.

It sounds right that every town should contribute equally to emergency management and then, when those goods and services are surplus to its own needs, provide them to fellow Canadians, (or, given our Continental obligations, Americans).

"From each according to their ability, to each according to their need" has motivated millions of people. And failed in its execution every time.

Most folk expect to contribute less than they receive.

....

Reality, or at least my reality, demands that resources of the type required for Emergency Management should be centrally managed.

Otherwise you could equally make the argument that National Defence starts with the citizen and the voluntary contribution of taxes and time.

 

[YZT580]

You are arguing over "The Commons".

The Commons were supposed to be held by everyone. They were in fact held by none and exploited by everyone.

It sounds right that every town should contribute equally to emergency management and then, when those goods and services are surplus to its own needs, provide them to fellow Canadians, (or, given our Continental obligations, Americans).

"From each according to their ability, to each according to their need" has motivated millions of people. And failed in its execution every time.

Most folk expect to contribute less than they receive.

....

Reality, or at least my reality, demands that resources of the type required for Emergency Management should be centrally managed.

Otherwise you could equally make the argument that National Defence starts with the citizen and the voluntary contribution of taxes and time.

not arguing about the commons at all. Central warehousing, central purchasing, central administration absolutely. That is the function of a department at the most, and could more effectively be done by a single office within a department once the planning is completed. Is it too far removed from the norm to have your planning group actually disappear once their work was completed and accepted instead of trying to stretch the work through to their pension?

 

[Brad Sallows]

not arguing about the commons at all. Central warehousing, central purchasing, central administration absolutely. That is the function of a department at the most, and could more effectively be done by a single office within a department once the planning is completed. Is it too far removed from the norm to have your planning group actually disappear once their work was completed and accepted instead of trying to stretch the work through to their pension?

Depends on the planning. A serious country would have multi-disciplinary "emergency plans" (including pandemics) and "war plans" gangs on a permanent basis, constantly updating and extending their own work.

 

[Kirkhill]

not arguing about the commons at all. Central warehousing, central purchasing, central administration absolutely. That is the function of a department at the most, and could more effectively be done by a single office within a department once the planning is completed. Is it too far removed from the norm to have your planning group actually disappear once their work was completed and accepted instead of trying to stretch the work through to their pension?

See Brad's comment.

The situation constantly evolves so plans constantly evolve.

 

[YZT580]

See Brad's comment.

The situation constantly evolves so plans constantly evolve.

absolutely, once a year for 2 weeks. But enough, I spent 40 years dealing with people building empires rather than solving problems. I shudder at the unnecessary costs involved but, so be it.

 

[Brad Sallows]

absolutely, once a year for 2 weeks. But enough, I spent 40 years dealing with people building empires rather than solving problems. I shudder at the unnecessary costs involved but, so be it.

If governments can't hire competent people into important positions without them always becoming "bureaucrats", it amounts to a concession that all the arguments about the effectiveness of good people working in government are piss in the wind.

 

[dimsum]

Helicopters! Helicopters! Helicopters!

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2024/10/02/fl_state_guardsman_what_the_media_is_telling_you_about_helene_is_complete_bullsht_politicians_dont_have_a_clue_and_are_lying.html

Welcome to the intricacies of Title 10 and Posse Comitatus. Until they get it, the US military active duty part cannot legally do anything within the US except for certain cases like NORAD.

This is a National Guard Title 32 thing, probably led by DHS, and only if the Governor mobilizes them.

 

[Kirkhill]

Welcome to the intricacies of Title 10 and Posse Comitatus. Until they get it, the US military active duty part cannot legally do anything within the US except for certain cases like NORAD.

This is a National Guard Title 32 thing, probably led by DHS, and only if the Governor mobilizes them.

And somebody has to find the dollars....

 

[Brad Sallows]

And somebody has to find the dollars....

"Everyone" understands the legal and fiscal barriers. What they're looking for are explanations as to what the holdups are in meeting the legal requirements and moving the money. "Well, you know, Title 10..." is a vacuous answer to people who know about Title 10 and are wondering who is holding up the show.

 

[dimsum]

"Everyone" understands the legal and fiscal barriers. What they're looking for are explanations as to what the holdups are in meeting the legal requirements and moving the money. "Well, you know, Title 10..." is a vacuous answer to people who know about Title 10 and are wondering who is holding up the show.

But Title 10 isn’t about the money. Title 10, amongst other things, is whether they can use Active Duty troops for domestic situations.

The money is a different thing.

 

[Brad Sallows]

But Title 10 isn’t about the money. Title 10, amongst other things, is whether they can use Active Duty troops for domestic situations.

The money is a different thing.

Yes, they're two different things. I assume pretty much everyone understand this, and that each of those two sets of demands have to be satisfied. The people responsible for checking the boxes in the legal process for requesting and activating assistance have to do their job, and the people responsible for finding the money to make things happen have to do their job. Are they doing their jobs with a sense of purpose, right now?

The question "Why aren't the authorities getting it done?" is just shorthand for "Why aren't the authorities completing the processes and getting the money flowing, and doing it quickly?"

If someone is the guy in charge, and his excuse for inaction is that he's waiting for his superiors to move...well, part of his job is to push his superiors to move. If he won't, he should resign right there and then.