Troops carrying pistols outside the gate

[daftandbarmy]

I've heard the same thing about how leaving mags loaded will weaken the spring and cause malfunctions from DLR reps, it's WRONG! Springs do not weaken from being under tension, they weaken by either exceeding their elastic deformation limits or by repeated cycling...   :

I used to reload all my mags weekly to make sure they weren't dented or clogged with dust etc. If you leave them in your tac vest all the time, you might get a ding or some dirt that can screw you up. I sometimes loaded different ammo natures in a different order (trace/ball/AP) based on the primary threat, which sometimes changed, or if I was doing more night vs. day ops.

It's also a good thing to commune with your ammo on a regular basis, especially during long, lonely operations. I mean, people talk to their pets and plants, don't they?

 

[mudgunner49]

Blake, yeah...next time, I'll perhaps mirror the practice of own mags.  I'm sure our BHP mags are as old as the pistols.  BTW, I'm assuming that was known to you only and the RSO didn't have the opportunity to flip out on you? 

G2G

G2G,

The RSO was standing beside the ammo table when I was loading my mags and asked me where I got them - nothing further was said.  It is fairly obvious that they were non-issue as they are blued (not parkerized) and have machined  aluminium CPMI base pads.  Nobody flipped out on me.

As an aside, there was an ND on the range that day, due in my opinion to the range staff not wanting the soldiers to wear the holster, but instead to hold the pistol in their hands while we wnt up to check targets.  The soldier who had the ND (young female corporal 031)inserted the mag, ran the slide fwd, and dropped the hammer on a live (duh) round. 

Doing away with the magazine disconnect (not safety) would eliminate 99% of these type of incidents as the mag would be almost totally removed from the unload process (no pun intended).

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Also make sure the people know to cycle the rounds, if they keep dropping the slide on the same round, the OAL will shorten. possibly causing feed problems or worse.

 

[Good2Golf]

Also make sure the people know to cycle the rounds, if they keep dropping the slide on the same round, the OAL will shorten. possibly causing feed problems or worse.

Colin, excellent point.  I-6 can probably confirm, but I remember hearing that a round really should be chambered only a few times (2-3?) and no more, otherwise there is a risk of the casing potentially rupturing and jamming in the barrel (or worse).  Can gun nuts confirm this?

Blake, yup...TOETs notwithstanding, that's why I think the mag safety is "not optimal".

G2G

 

[GAP]

It's also a good thing to commune with your ammo on a regular basis, especially during long, lonely operations. I mean, people talk to their pets and plants, don't they?

Yes, and they are great conversationalists.......can you imagine the stories your ammo could tell? Never thought of that, maybe that's why they get balky and all......(I didn't talk to them....hmmmm)  ;D

 

[1feral1]

G2G,

As an aside, there was an ND on the range that day, due in my opinion to the range staff not wanting the soldiers to wear the holster, but instead to hold the pistol in their hands while we wnt up to check targets.  The soldier who had the ND (young female corporal 031)inserted the mag, ran the slide fwd, and dropped the hammer on a live (duh) round. 

Doing away with the magazine disconnect (not safety) would eliminate 99% of these type of incidents as the mag would be almost totally removed from the unload process (no pun intended).

We did that. It used to be a SF mod only, and now force wide, all 9mm BHP MkIII pistols have no mag safeties now. Sure, the pam had to be rewritten, and maybe the CF will follow this???

All BHP L9A1 and Mk I and II, plus any surviving Inglis models have been removed from service, pending smelt. The latest 9 x19mm BHP Vigilante MKIII is now the ADF standard.

In theatre, as for the tension on mag spring issue. It was SOP each Friday to unload all mags, clean the ammo and mags of that desert dust, and reloadd them, giving the springs a rest for 30 mins (ha!). We just did what we were told about the 30 mins. Another urban military legend. If we had spring or other mag issues, this was brought to me, the mag was smashed, and replaced through our Q Store.

 

[mudgunner49]

Colin, excellent point.  I-6 can probably confirm, but I remember hearing that a round really should be chambered only a few times (2-3?) and no more, otherwise there is a risk of the casing potentially rupturing and jamming in the barrel (or worse).  Can gun nuts confirm this?

Blake, yup...TOETs notwithstanding, that's why I think the mag safety is "not optimal".

G2G

While bullet set-back is possible in the 9x19, it is more problematic in cartridges with a much sharper pressure curve (like .40 Smith & Wesson).  1/8" of bullet set-back in a 180 gr. .40 S&W will almost double the peak chamber pressure - not so much with the 9x19, though it is still possible.  I am under the impression that this has to do with a number of factors, not the least of which are  a) OAL to diameter ratio of CIQ (ctg in ?);  b) case-neck tension; and c) angle of entry into the chamber (straighter is better).

These are not the only things that effect the chamber pressure, but are the most easily managed.  As was stated earlier, limiting the number of times that a round is chambered and comparing it to a new round periodically WRT OAL is probably the easiest.

It is highly unlikely that set-back will cause the case to rupture unless it is fired with an attendant over-pressure incident occurring.  Then all bets are off...

Wes - I was composing while you were posting.  Care to elaborate on chamber pressure from the gun-plumber POV???


blake

 

[Colin Parkinson]

If I recall, NATO standard ball is very close to +p  so short OAL would be more critical than in a standard civilian 124gr.

 

[mudgunner49]

If I recall, NATO standard ball is very close to +p  so short OAL would be more critical than in a standard civilian 124gr.

It's also set up to cycle in an SMG (usually), so the case neck tension issue has been ironed out with 9x10 long ago.  Pressure is still less than for .40...

 

[KevinB]

While I've not really noticed bulelt setback issues in 9mm -- I do notice it a lot in .45ACP  -- Since we are now playing the 'game' more often than not with unloading on FOB's I tend to have to a pitch a 230gr JHP a week (sometimes more often) due to setback issues --

  In our compound or whenever I can I dont unload and just leave it readied.

In Kevin's world -- pers weapons would only get cleared for cleaning...

 

[Journeyman]

I unload all my magazines, multiple times, at least once per week....."re-stressing them" with both ball and frange.  ;D

Into the air or into the hesco?  ;D

For some reason celebratory gunfire is frowned upon.   
In camp, frangible is obviously for steel plates, and ball is for shooting cardboard and staff officers

In addition to plain bulls-eyes, Fig. 11s and 12s, we've got a bunch of paper targets with "multiple choices" -- who's the bad guy? Can I get the bad guy and not the hostage? We've got one that is terrific for making people cringe -- a very pregnant woman threatening with a gun (the object is to take down the bad mommy and not the unborn child who is clearly destined to cure cancer and not be a crack-whore terrorist like mom  [apologies to all you crack-whore terrorist moms out there  ] )

[tangent ends]

 

[KevinB]

www.letargets.com

specifically http://www.letargets.com/html/full_color.html

We got these off the USSOC guys a while back -- and I still have not seen a better source for them.

I know several units/commands are still buying them -- and Journeyman's pregnant girl is there too.

plus they have add on itmes so you can add badges, skewdrivers, cellphones etc -to make non threat tgt's look a little more threatening - and get the shooter to rapidly and properly id threat and kill them -- rather than the poor schmuck with the cell phone.

 

[lone bugler]

i pray that no member of the Canadian forces will be unarmed in a combat zone.... pistol is always better than nothing plus i do remember seeing articles how troops are doing searches in confined spaces in Afghanistan, such as houses, caves, cellars etc. pistol is a must 

 

[KevinB]

One other comment is that the NATO Fig11 tgt gives troop a woeful COM -- and tends to direct them to fire too low - and avoid the ideal aiming point of the centre of the upper chest (well head if your that good)

  The photorealistic decision maker targets are a lot better as well as other with a better "scoring ring" defined low vis on them.

 

[Loachman]

Journeyman's pregnant girl is there too.

Pregnant, or bad shoplifter?

 

[TangoTwoBravo]

In Kevin's world -- pers weapons would only get cleared for cleaning...

This would also cut down on the 'change of weapon state' NDs that happen when people are in a rush coming into the gate.

 

[darmil]

Weapons are not to be loaded in KAF until you leave the front gate.

Well I can carry a loaded weapon, not readied on KAF I have force exemption.I think all troops should carry a pistol.I like having to firearms.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Well I bet Glock would happily sell us 2,000 G19's with 3 mags each for about $500 a gun, throw in spare parts, manuals, mags, some training for the gun plumbers, likely 1.25mil. Not a total Glock fan but the G19 is a decent little pistol, light, smallish and easy to learn on.

Of course by the time the CF and the treasury board policies are followed, the contract will be $16 million and 10 years in the making.

 

[NL_engineer]

Well I bet Glock would happily sell us 2,000 G19's with 3 mags each for about $500 a gun, throw in spare parts, manuals, mags, some training for the gun plumbers, likely 1.25mil. Not a total Glock fan but the G19 is a decent little pistol, light, smallish and easy to learn on.

Of course by the time the CF and the treasury board policies are followed, the contract will be $16 million and 10 years in the making.

For half the ammount  :

 

[medaid]

G19 is a good pistol for Mil and LEO service from many that have had experienxe in both worlds. It's a favoured CCW weapon as well in the States. Me wants one ;D