Troops carrying pistols outside the gate

[Good2Golf]

The weapons load out for anyone should be consistent with their assigned duties, with due consideration of the conditions that they will be operating in.  Several examples provided already whereby the carbine may have not been practical for the soldier given the circumstances, yet they should have had a personal weapon (working on loads, in med facility, working with locals building/office, etc...)  I always had my BHP with me, but I didn't always take my C8.  It shouldn't be considered a hard and fast rule that officers and sr NCOs only should have a pistol; that can be a starting point, but appreciation of the situation should also provide for pistol use by any soldier.  The other point is also an excellent one, training on personal weapons, not matter the specific type, must be thorough - we're talking "proficient", not just "current".  It seems there's a discreet sentiment by some that limiting weapon load outs might somehow reduce things like NDs....that would be incorrect thinking, IMO.  Proper training, and continued practice to maintain proficiency is what keeps things like NDs from happening.  I don't think "lack of avail BHPs is an issue at all.

mein 2¢
G2G

 

[George Wallace]

I think that was a fairly good way to put it. 

Job and proficiency should be the factor; not rank.  This would preclude some of 'rank' being issued a pistol, but it would be the result of a safety concern more than anything else.  I have known of an instance where an officer was issued a pistol and did not know how to assemble it.  That should have been the Warning Sign.  While deployed, he had an ND and shot himself.  Rank did not save him.  Proficiency with the weapon would have.

 

[geo]

A certain individual in Afghanistan
Ended up firing a round between the knees of his GWagon driver..... Twice!

Proficient with the BHP ..... not!

 

[Sig_Des]

Weapon's assignment should very much be based on what you'll be doing.

When I was there, I was working in vehicles, tight spaces, moving back and forth between multiple vehicles. Having a rifle slung on my back would have been very awkward when my arms are deep in the guts of a LAV turret. When outside the wire, I carried both. When working outside the wire, rifle stayed withing reach, pistol on me at all times.

The flip side of this, I remember talking to a tech who stayed in his shop, and he asked me "how the hell" I got a pistol, as it seemed to be a status thing for some. But I also know of Sgt Majors who would do a random check. They'd see someone with a pistol, tell them to disassemble and reassemble it. If they couldn't do so, they'd have the soldier in question turn in their pistol. To me, the fact that weapons were given to people who couldn't even maintain it, BIG no-no.

To me, the pistol is just another tool in the toolbox, that depending on what you're doing, may very well be effective. Besides, I don't need a pistol to look cool. I wear Oakley's  8)

 

[dangerboy]

As a Sect Comd overseas I was issued a pistol, if there was a requirement for one of my soldiers to use a pistol (IE doing searches) I would lend him mine as he would have in my mind a higher priority.

 

[OldSolduer]

I agree with Sig Des.

But let's say this.....we, as leaders, must TRAIN the privates to a level where we feel comfortable issuing them a 9mm BHP. This takes time and ammo, and pistol shooting in the infantry is an afterthought. It needs more work and more ammo.
Clerks don't need pistols and most of them aren't very proficient with the C-7 either. It is OUR responsibility to ensure that they are trained.
Medics need pistols for their personal protection and the protection of their patients.

 

[Sig_Des]

I agree with Sig Des.

But let's say this.....we, as leaders, must TRAIN the privates to a level where we feel comfortable issuing them a 9mm BHP. This takes time and ammo, and pistol shooting in the infantry is an afterthought. It needs more work and more ammo.
Clerks don't need pistols and most of them aren't very proficient with the C-7 either. It is OUR responsibility to ensure that they are trained.
Medics need pistols for their personal protection and the protection of their patients.

I agree very much with you regarding the training. But it's not just the Privates and lower level ranks. ANYONE who'll be issued a pistol should be proficient with it. In fact, the same applies to ANY weapons system, really. When I was in Ottawa, and did a weapons refresher at Connaught, there were lot's of NDHQ types, who from their handling of the BHP in a controlled training environment, well, I would have been scared to drive them in theater for sure. And many of us know the story of the Sgt in KAF who had the ND playing "quickdraw cowboy"

As far as clerks, when I at KAF on Roto 3, every clerk at the NCE OR had a pistol, while very few of the V techs, who were always crawling around vehicles, did. I'll let everyone form their own opinions on that.

 

[OldSolduer]

Good points Sig Des.

As far as I'm concerned, clerks should carry a C7 or C8 and take their pistol away. "I work in an office" is no excuse. Well, in Croatia and Bosnia, I worked in an office too, but was never issued a pistol. And we had a Sgt in Croatia in 93 who had an ND as well.
When a private or cpl has an ND, the hue and cry goes up and the knee jerk reaction is to ban all cpls and ptes from carrying a weapon that they should be proficient with.
What they don't address is a leadership issue: Train the troops to handle it properly. Then give them the instruction, time and ammo to become deadly with it, like we do the C7 and C9.

 

[geo]

With the C7A2s on issue, the clerks certainly don't need C8s OR pistols.  Let them carry a rifle

WRT to Officers & Sr NCOs: having a pistol is nice -  but it isn't a substitute for a good service rifle.

 

[Sig_Des]

What they don't address is a leadership issue: Train the troops to handle it properly. Then give them the instruction, time and ammo to become deadly with it, like we do the C7 and C9.

Agreed. And all in all, while a pistol isn't a substitute to a Rifle, but a supplement, IMHO, it all comes back to one thing. It's not limiting who has it, it's getting ANYONE who may have to use it, up-to-date training and trigger time.

 

[OldSolduer]

geo and Sig Des....agreed.

Now, I'm with a reserve unit after 25 years in the Regular Force infantry. We attempt to have our troops at least fire it, under supervision, a few times a year. We don't have enough ammo for them to become deadly with it.
In 93, our clerks carried C7s, not pistols, at least in my unit. In fact, one of our clerks almoast shot  someone when he had an ND.
Where clerks got the idea they needed pistols is beyond me. The pistols should go to those who may actually have to use it, not sit in a desk drawer being neglected.
The idea of vehicle techs being issued a pistol is a good one. Same with someone who is tasked to conduct a vehicle search. Opinions??

 

[medaid]

Everyone carried a rifle in the states don't they? Even a doc or a nurse had a carbine and a pistol from hospital to sleeping area.

No one is without a rifle or carbine of some sort from everything that I saw, and pistols for most if not all the pers regardless of rank or position.

 

[blacktriangle]

I don't even get why a clerk would want a pistol...do they go outside the wire ever, such as on convoy escort duty?

Also, I'll be the first to admit that I only have maybe 1000 rds through the browning 9mm, but from my experiences, it would not be something I'd want to rely soley on, as opposed to just serving as a backup for my rifle.

 

[daftandbarmy]

FWIW...

C6 gunners - Yes
C9 gunners - Meh
Medics - Yes
Officers & SNCOs - No
Sect Comds - Discretionary

 

[Greymatters]

As far as I'm concerned, clerks should carry a C7 or C8 and take their pistol away. "I work in an office" is no excuse. Well, in Croatia and Bosnia, I worked in an office too, but was never issued a pistol. And we had a Sgt in Croatia in 93 who had an ND as well. 

Agree with that - pistols should be considered a backup weapon, or of higher value in confined spaces, or use in close quarters (among other criteria).  A pistol also requries a higher level of skill to use properly than a C7/C8 requires, and very few clerks are likely to be proficient with them.  Clerks at a headquarters rarely fit any of those needs or capabilities, and the only justification left over is is the 'look-cool factor'. Did they also use the issued under-arm shoulder holsters :  or did they were the pistol on a belt? 

 

[Sig_Des]

Clerks at a headquarters rarely fit any of those needs or capabilities, and the only justification left over is is the 'look-cool factor'. Did they also use the issued under-arm shoulder holsters :  or did they were the pistol on a belt?   

http://www.army.forces.gc.ca/lf/English/6_1_1.asp?ID=1825

First and Second paragraph:

It dawned on me just how lucky I am to be here. I don't have to cook, wash dishes, wash or fold laundry. And I get to carry around a rifle everywhere I go. Except to the gym or to the washroom.

That's the latest kick in the pants. The position I am filling is a Master Corporal position and they don't want it over ranked. So I willingly gave up my rank for the operation. Then I am advised that because I am not a Sergeant I am not entitled to a pistol, which is less cumbersome and awkward than my rifle.

http://www.army.forces.gc.ca/lf/English/6_1_1.asp?ID=1825

couple letters later, in the first paragraph:

What a cool day I had yesterday (Thursday).  First of all, they found a pistol for me so I got to go lock up my C7 rifle.

The bold's are my own. And no, that isn't an issued shoulder holster. Blackhawk (or whatever they called it) store on the boardwalk at KAF, or Afghan Market. 

 

[Blakey]

Sig_Des, same links you have there, this is the second one.
http://www.army.forces.gc.ca/lf/English/6_1_1.asp?id=1849

 

[Sig_Des]

Sig_Des, same links you have there, this is the second one.
http://www.army.forces.gc.ca/lf/English/6_1_1.asp?id=1849

Cheers. So I think my point is made.

 

[1feral1]

On my tour ALL trades had both a BHP Mk III pistol, F88SA1C carbine and frags too. Generically speaking. Spl wpns such as M79, M203, Para Minimi etc were issued as required.

Yes, the clerk had a pistol as did the CSM, as did us all. We were part of a Combat Team, with 3RAR (Para) the mainstay, follwed by RAAC, and the rrest of us. We are all soldiers first and tradesmen second.

Ya, and we had to submit justification to keep them as after Jake Kovco shot himself in the head with his, a few months earlier (google jake kovco for yourselves). Seems the folk back in Canberra were about to place a pistol ban on us in theatre, claiming we did not need them.

The only time I did not carry my pistol was when I slept, and when I showered. It was glued to me

Yes I agree with Kev on this one too.

Cheers,

Wes

 

[OldSolduer]

Sig_Des:

Good points. Pictures are worth a thousand words. "So I got to lock up my rifle" or words to that effect. hmmmmm. That tells you where the mind set is.
A comedian (Billy Crystal) used to say "It's more important to look good than to feel good" I'll plagiarize this - It's more important to look cool than carry a C7 that may save your or your buddy's life!
And the rear echelon types wonder why the "outside the wire" guys disrespect them.

Good thing for the clerks etc I'm not the comd. The pistols would ge gone and issued to the troops that need them, rank not withstanding.