Travel on weekend leave

[SupersonicMax]

I see weekend leave passes entirely as superfluous.  Checking an airplane before flying (albeit less in detail than the tech who just did his preflight) is a safety layer.  In an airplane, if something goes wrong airborne, you can't just stop on the side of the road so in this case, I think a quick second look is not superfluous but accepted industry safety practices. 

 

[Gunner98]

I guess he did not see difference...when I said "In this argument"! :-X

 

[Quirky]

Pretty interesting info.

I've always questioned needing a leave pass to leave the local area. When I'd enquire what the local area was an NCOs would more times than not seem to make something up off the top of their head.

"you won't be covered (medically) if you get into an accident and don't have a leave pass"

I’ve always laughed at that. How many people travel to Edmonton from Cold Lake for example on a weekend without a leave pass? Everyone. So by that notion if you get into a car accident they will charge you for medical care and deny you prescription coverage then cut your salary? BS

 

[Eye In The Sky]

The more important policy for a weekend leave outside the local area is QR&O 16.01 http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/about-policies-standards-queens-regulations-orders-vol-01/ch-16.page:

16.01 - WITHHOLDING OF AND RECALL FROM LEAVE
(1) Leave may be withheld from an officer or non-commissioned member only when there is a military requirement to do so.

(2) An officer or non-commissioned member on leave may be recalled to duty only:

because of imperative military requirements; and
when the member's commanding officer personally directs the member's return to duty.

(3) An officer or non-commissioned member recalled to duty under paragraph (2) ceases to be on leave and is on duty during the period of the journey from the place from which he is recalled to his place of duty and during the period of the return journey if he resumes leave immediately after completion of the duty for which he was recalled.

It is for this reason that Bases normally state a leave policy that is associated with a map showing boundaries. For coverage for injuries and subsequent VAC benefits you want to be officially be on leave, if while you are returning to unit/Base when recalled by the CO and you get into a car accident it is an injury that occurred while on duty.  Without the leave pass showing your intended location/destination then it is expected that you are at home (the place from which you are recalled) and not camping in the woods off the beaten path (the place you forgot to get a leave pass to serve as evidence that this was your intent).

In addition to the CF 100 having information on how to acquire health services while on leave it also helps to document your status, if you are on official leave and you require hospitalization then the leave shall terminate on the day prior to the date of admission (for accounting purposes).

???

If the CO or delegated pers contacts me at 2200hrs on a Friday, THAT is my 'evidence' that I am no longer off duty and on duty as off 2200hrs.  If I am in Toronto, and at 2230hrs, slip on some ice outside the airport getting out of the cab while heading to wait on standby/get on the next avail flight, you're saying I would be considered on duty because I am not on a leave pass?  And that VAC wouldn't consider it an injury while 'on duty'?  ???

Bases and units making their own leave policy that is counter to that authorized for the entire CAF by the CMP;  can a Base Cmdr or Unit CO say "all pers under the rank of Sgt will be restricted to 15 Days Ann Leave regardless of years of service while posted to my unit"?  No, because someone higher than them has already made a policy that says otherwise.  Why is it people think the weekend leave policy is any different?  If I hand in a leave pass to go 'anywhere in Canada' on a normal weekend off, it will be handed back to me.  My Wing doesn't process weekend leave passes now because...they are not required for weekend leave/non-duty weekends. 

There are no "base recall limits" unless you are actually on standby/recall.  Not everyone is considered Standby "just in case" - that is why the leave policy manual also details things like IMRs because in the past, people in positions of authority did stupid things for no good reason and the result was a CAF-wide Leave Policy.  It's pretty easy, like CFPAS is, people only need to read and follow it (oddly enough, the ones who make their own rules and ignore ones from higher are usually the same ones who expect THEIR rules to followed without question  :).  The problem comes when people in positions like CO etc decide to insert their own rules for some far fetched reason and ignore policy from higher.

More importantly, where in the QR & O does it state "Bases and units are authorized to ignore the CAF policy auth by the CMP and can insert their own policy, willy-nilly where they see fit"?  The part of the QR & O you ref'd is about recall from leave, and not directly related to weekends (the CAF policy is you don't require leave or a leave pass for a normal weekend off-duty). 

 

[Eye In The Sky]

As I stated we are doing this to ourselves because QR&Os tell us to and following orders may require duplication of effort; but, QR&O seldom result in redundant activity (by definition - superfluous; exceeding what is necessary.)

Please, show me where the QR & Os state a leave pass is required for normal weekend travel.  I've shown where the CAF Leave Policy says the opposite.

The reality in many units is that soldiers prepare handwritten weekend leave passes and sign them without dates entered so that should one be required for admin purposes the appropriate supervisor will sign it and use the text messages as references.

This practice is also banned now at my unit. 


I've have a particular pet peeve with the sentiment "CO's can do what they want";  they can't.  There are policies and regulations from higher they are expected to enforce and follow, and statements like the one below from the Leave Policy Manual are written for a reason.

Application

Unless otherwise indicated, this manual applies to all members of the Canadian Forces (CF).

 

[Gunner98]

???

If the CO or delegated pers contacts me at 2200hrs on a Friday, THAT is my 'evidence' that I am no longer off duty and on duty as off 2200hrs.  If I am in Toronto, and at 2230hrs, slip on some ice outside the airport getting out of the cab while heading to wait on standby/get on the next avail flight, you're saying I would be considered on duty because I am not on a leave pass?  And that VAC wouldn't consider it an injury while 'on duty'?  ???

In the same way that VAC requests that you prove you were actually on the exercise/deployment, that you were doing unit-authorized PT, received permission to play intramurals through a published team roster, that people going to National Sports competitions on weekends have their CO's approval in writing.  How can you prove that you were in Toronto and not sitting in your basement mancave when you received the call from you CO.  The fact that he approved you to go to Toronto indicates that teh chain of command accepts responsibility for transit as being part of the recall. 

As for Base recall limits, many Base Sharepoint sites/Standing Orders include a map showing acceptable living from Base distances and ask people to sign a Statement of Understanding.  Please don't say not everyone does that, I know; the many Bases I am familiar still do.

As for what a CO can do QR&O is your source once again:

4.20 - GENERAL RESPONSIBILITIES OF A COMMANDING OFFICER
(1) A commanding officer is responsible for the whole of the organization and safety of the commanding officer's base, unit or element, but the detailed distribution of work between the commanding officer and subordinates is left substantially to the commanding officer's discretion.

(2) Unless otherwise provided in QR&O, a commanding officer may allocate to officers, who are immediately subordinate to the commanding officer, all matters of routine or of minor administration.

(3) A commanding officer shall retain for himself:

matters of general organization and policy;
important matters requiring the commanding officer's personal attention and decision; and
the general control and supervision of the various duties that the commanding officer has allocated to others.
(4) A commanding officer of a base, unit or element shall ensure that all works and buildings at the base, unit or element are properly safeguarded at all times.

(C) [24 April 2007]

4.21 - STANDING ORDERS
(1) A commanding officer shall issue standing orders which shall include orders that are peculiar to the commanding officer's base, unit or element.

(2) An officer in temporary command of a base, unit or element shall not issue standing orders, nor alter those already in force, without reference to the officer in permanent command or to superior authority.

(3) Where a commanding officer is away from the base, unit or element, that officer shall not issue standing orders.

(C)

[4.22 to 4.25 inclusive: not allocated]

 

[Sub_Guy]

  How can you prove that you were in Toronto and not sitting in your basement mancave when you received the call from you CO.  The fact that he approved you to go to Toronto indicates that teh chain of command accepts responsibility for transit as being part of the recall. 

This would be pretty fucking easy.  It would show up on your cell phone bill, or at least it does on mine. 

Weekend leave passes are not required and are no longer processed here at 14 Wing as previously stated.  The common sense train is slowly picking up passengers, thank fuck.

 

[Jarnhamar]

This would be pretty fucking easy.  It would show up on your cell phone bill, or at least it does on mine. 

I don't think CO's can demand to see members phone bills to prove where you are. Also don't phone bills only track outgoing locations calls are made from, not where you are when you receive a call?

I've seen them CoC demand to see cell phone and Facebook conversations to try and prove members were lying about  not knowing (missed) timings. Didn't seem like a lawful request to me.

 

[Good2Golf]

Max

I have always enjoyed how you as a pilot use the rationale - it is takes my time and it is unlikely that anything will happen so why bother.  Does that mean you don't waste time doing pre-flight checks and walkarounds of your aircraft and tolerate your mechanics not doing preventive maintenance because the plane flew well the last time so let's roll the dice!

In this argument you submit that it costs CAF money to follow an admin procedure, so you inflate the numbers so high that it makes your side of the argument weak - 10 minutes to create a leave pass, 5 minutes to sign a piece of paper.  So let's be real and say 5, 1 and 1, so now it is a reasonable $6,600 to track a group of 250 people for one year.  It is all about risk management and taking care of people.  I think that $6,600 of Leave Pass work is a like a good insurance policy that could pay dividends for one soldier who may need that Leave Pass that was saved in HRMS for a VAC claim in the future.  It may be one day, week or many years after you and your subordinate have deleted that text message that acknowledged their weekend plan.

Not analogous.  There are very clear policies and requirements for maintenance of aircraft, and require deliberate action by qualified and appropriately scheduled crews — nothing haphazard or optional about that.

Max was, to my impression, presenting additional factors in the discussion as to why being patently more restrictive than the CF Leave Manual States, could be deemed administratively burdensome.

Let’s take another perspective - that the CO fully supports use of the policies contained within the CF Leave Manual.  He or she also consider that, potential voluntary arrangements aside for subordinates at any level to advise upwards of their intentions to undertake entitled weekend leave, each of the unit members may take said unregistered weekend leave and RFD on Monday for commencement of regular duties.  If I didn’t order my OCs/Flight Comds to get specific information about the whereabouts of any of their personnel over a weekend, then I sure was not going to be unreasonable if there happened to be something unforeseen pop up and squadron members outside of the standing call-out team weren’t available.  If somebody tried to bombastically screw over one of their subordinates with some statement like, “but sir, they went out to Vancouver for the weekend without a leave pass!” the response likely would have been, “Good! I hope they enjoyed themselves.  They’ll be mentally refreshed for this week’s task.”

At risk of re-energizing the “Monitor Mass is a wonderful product to be the best/easiest/simplest/most flexible/etc. (unofficial) tool to manage CAF member leave” argument, I don’t get the predilections of this who wish to complicate an otherwise simple process will all sorts of complexities. 

The QR&Os and DAODs give COs pretty extensive powers, but one of those powers is to also exercise judgement and ensure operational effectiveness balanced with administrative efficiency.  Where valid operational readiness requirements exist, the requisite regulations, orders, directives and policies exist to support those requirements.

All the add-ones (Monitor Mass [for weekend leave capture], MCpls ordering Privates and Corporals to have cell phones to respond with 5 minutes of a text for sound troop administration, etc) distract from the goal of having (just) enough administration to be effective.  The hypothetical ‘call-out what-ifs’ outside of a working framework for appropriate alert/recall function (where members are issued official tools to support responsive action) is an argument looking for a valid query.  Collecting fly-poop for all the various what-ifs loses sight of the true nature of readiness and responsiveness.  If needed, the Crown will provide. If you don’t get issued a  Blackberry or pager or home DWAN terminal or other specialized equipment, it may just be that what you think is mission critical is not truly mission critical (having things done over the weekend when there was no indication of such a requirement at COB Friday.

:2c:

Regards
G2G

*edited post mobile-posting*

 

[ballz]

I think that $6,600 of Leave Pass work is a like a good insurance policy that could pay dividends for one soldier who may need that Leave Pass that was saved in HRMS for a VAC claim in the future.  It may be one day, week or many years after you and your subordinate have deleted that text message that acknowledged their weekend plan.

I think all of this is an irrelevant tangent because if I'm recalled, on the weekend, to come back to 2 RCR in Gagetown, and I happen to be in Halifax for the weekend without a leave pass (because it's the weekend and I don't need one for that), the fact that I didn't have a leave pass isn't going to mean diddly squat if I need to put in a VAC claim because I got in a car accident near Moncton on the way back.

I was still on leave, I was still recalled from leave, and from that moment I was on duty. Your assertion that because I didn't have a leave pass meant I was "expected to be at home" and therefore if I get in a car accident near Moncton I am not "covered" is supported by what policy/evidence? Not the leave manual, that's for sure. As well, the purpose of a leave pass is not to track member's whereabouts, as has been mentioned.

 

[ballz]

"you won't be covered (medically) if you get into an accident and don't have a leave pass"

Always my favourite line of BS, perpetuated by all those who ought to know better.

I don't think CO's can demand to see members phone bills to prove where you are. Also don't phone bills only track outgoing locations calls are made from, not where you are when you receive a call?

I've seen them CoC demand to see cell phone and Facebook conversations to try and prove members were lying about  not knowing (missed) timings. Didn't seem like a lawful request to me.

He's talking about the member using it to support a VAC claim. The member can use any evidence they want.

How can you prove that you were in Toronto and not sitting in your basement mancave when you received the call from you CO.  The fact that he approved you to go to Toronto indicates that teh chain of command accepts responsibility for transit as being part of the recall. 

Proving you were in Toronto would be pretty damn easy. Numerous receipts, the plane ticket you were using to come back, etc. Proving you were "approved" to be in Toronto is irrelevant... you didn't need approval to be there.

 

[Gunner98]

As well, the purpose of a leave pass is not to track member's whereabouts, as has been mentioned.

If the purpose of the leave pass is not to track a member's whereabouts: then why is there a section that asks Address While on Leave and Telephone?  And why does it ask if you will be Travelling Abroad?  Why does the Instruction page state: 

b. ''From''/''To'' blocks include leave period, weekends and statutory
holidays if applicable.

It would be prudent during In Clearance and Orientation period to to verify with your local Standing Orders at the Div, Bde, Base or Unit to know what the "local policies are".

 

[garb811]

This whole thread has given me a headache.  The Retention vs Recruiting thread is talking about why people stay and why people don't stick around.  People making stuff up and others perpetuating it as "gospel" without critical thought, like is happening in this thread, is a huge factor.  Stop treating  your troops like kids and they will start acting like adults.  Keep treating them like kids, including telling them they MUST get your permission to go visit their parents three hours away and they will walk away from the chickencrap.

I haven't put a "weekend" leave pass in since...my QL3, which was decades ago.  Ever since then I've just gone about my business and the world hasn't ended, which included flying across the country and back on a long weekend while attending a course.  Even as a "1 of 1" who needs to be reached in a fairly expeditious manner for certain things the world has somehow kept turning without my boss knowing my exact whereabouts on the weekend.  This has even been true on Annual leave when I've put in ambiguous destinations such as, "Touring NS, NB and PEI" because I didn't really know where I was going to end up, other than somewhere within those three provinces for at least a portion of my leave with the remainder being spent tooling around my home province.

75% of my "weekend leave" trips are made spur of the moment, as I'm sure quite a few others do.  The folks arguing the "need" for a weekend leave pass probably wouldn't be too happy if their troops suddenly started calling them up at 7am on a Saturday because they had forgotten their kid had a hockey game "outside the recall area" and needed a pass.  Of course, seeing that they would impose a "deadline" for weekend leave passes to be submitted, they would immediately deny it because their timeline wasn't met, and good lesson to be taught by forcing the child to miss their game.  :

I don't think CO's can demand to see members phone bills to prove where you are. Also don't phone bills only track outgoing locations calls are made from, not where you are when you receive a call?

I've seen them CoC demand to see cell phone and Facebook conversations to try and prove members were lying about  not knowing (missed) timings. Didn't seem like a lawful request to me.

It wasn't a lawful request, the only legal way to get it is with a warrant or a production order. Particularly since there is no doubt in my mind that they had visions of charging whoever it was being demanded from if it showed they did know.

As for what a cellphone bill even proves, I don't get a traditional cellphone bill in the first place because I'm on electronic billing.  Even if I were to print it off it has zero records of any calls I have made or received because I'm on a cross-Canada use as much as you want plan so there isn't any need to account for additional costs due to long distance etc.

 

[Gunner98]

Do you really think it is the chicken manure like Leave Passes, Standing Orders and CO's autonomy intends to create an invasion of troops personal lives that are chasing people away?  I know that isn't what chase me away!  Stop making this sounds so arduous and intrusive.  The reason I pointed out the policies was in response to the folks saying "What gives the Bde Comd or the CO the right to tell when to take my leave" and "Why would anyone need a weekend leave pass".  I concede that the CAF Leave Policy Manual is very clear on weekend leave passes. But like all admin policies they are not vetted with Veterans Affairs to see if they meet their requirements.

I was at a recent conference where a senior officer from MPC/CMP stated the CAF has 600 admin policies that cover the standard processes that apply to fit, healthy, deployable soldiers. CAF Health Services has over 1000 policies that discuss what goes on when things take an unexpected turn for the average soldier.

 

[ballz]

If the purpose of the leave pass is not to track a member's whereabouts: then why is there a section that asks Address While on Leave and Telephone?  And why does it ask if you will be Travelling Abroad?

Don't know, and don't really care. Perhaps because that is useful info for the approving authority to review before deciding to approve all the other types of leave he could possibly have to approve.

The leave pass is as old as the military itself... And maybe this a failure of the leave policy manual, given that it's "intent" is obviously not clear and it isn't explicitly stated. Given its use throughout history as something the soldier had on him to show that he was not AWOL / had deserted the Unit, which is why to this day the policy manual still states:

"A member shall produce a CF 100:
- for inspection when requested by a member of the Military Police or asuperior officer; and
- to any military or civilian medical or dental facility when treatment is requested."

I suspect, back at the beginning of time, they decided that this was not necessary when he's at home, in Canada, on a Saturday and/or Sunday, and the likelihood of an MP in Toronto arbitrarily requesting the leave pass of a plain-clothed soldier who he suspects might be AWOL would be pretty non-existent.

Why does the Instruction page state: 

b. ''From''/''To'' blocks include leave period, weekends and statutory holidays if applicable.

Because... "Weekends, designated and other holidays are included on a CF 100 when they form part of a leave period in conjunction with other types of leave that are reckoned in working days."

So that you don't end up doing 10x leave passes to cover off Xmas block leave?  :

Otherwise,  "A CF 100 is not required for a member proceeding exclusively on weekends and/or designated or other holidays, except when:
- travelling to a foreign country, or to a country other than the one where the member is employed;
- travel benefits are requested (e.g. LTA); or
- required for ration accounting purposes for members authorized to draw rations on a continuous basis."

 

[garb811]

Do you really think it is the chicken manure like Leave Passes, Standing Orders and CO's autonomy intends to create an invasion of troops personal lives that are chasing people away?

Standing Orders and CO's autonomy, no.  When people make up and then try to defend policies that are clearly contradicting a national policy with chickencrap?  Absolutely.

This isn't like when I first got in and the QR&Os were locked in the OR and you needed permission to read them.  Troops today have full access to the Leave Manual and they read it cover to cover and quite likely know the section they are concerned about much better than the supervisor they are questioning.

I know that isn't what chase me away!  Stop making this sounds so arduous and intrusive.  The reason I pointed out the policies was in response to the folks saying "What gives the Bde Comd or the CO the right to tell when to take my leave" and "Why would anyone need a weekend leave pass".  I concede that the CAF Leave Policy Manual is very clear on weekend leave passes. But like all admin policies they are not vetted with Veterans Affairs to see if they meet their requirements.

I was at a recent conference where a senior officer from MPC/CMP stated the CAF has 600 admin policies that cover the standard processes that apply to fit, healthy, deployable soldiers. CAF Health Services has over 1000 policies that discuss what goes on when things take an unexpected turn for the average soldier.

"VAC's requirements" should simply be to see if what the member was doing was in concordance with what CAF policy was at the time.  VAC doesn't dictate what is and isn't on duty or not, which is why any CF98 I'm involved with has a clear statement of whether or not the injury was duty related.

This cycles back to the fear mongering that used to be held as gospel as to non-issued kit like boots (OMG, you slip on ice and break your leg in Danners, VAC isn't going to cover you!) and PT outside duty hours (OMG, you go for a run on the weekend and get hit by a truck, VAC isn't going to cover you!). Neither of those is true either.

 

[garb811]

...
The leave pass is as old as the military itself... And maybe this a failure of the leave policy manual, given that it's "intent" is obviously not clear and it isn't explicitly stated. Given its use throughout history as something the soldier had on him to show that he was not AWOL / had deserted the Unit, which is why to this day the policy manual still states:
...

Further to, I seem to recall that once GUARDIAN rolls out fully, CF100's are going the way of the Dodo as all leave is going to be submitted and approved in a manner close to what happens with DND civilians.

 

[Gunner98]

Does anyone have access to MHRRP, Chapter 16 which according to CAF Leave Policy Manual has more info on the CF100 Leave Request Form.  Is CF 100 (09-00), 7530-21-899-4371 the most current form in use?

Further to, I seem to recall that once GUARDIAN rolls out fully, CF100's are going the way of the Dodo as all leave is going to be submitted and approved in a manner close to what happens with DND civilians.

Good luck to CAF members once Guardian rolls out since Oracle (Leave) and Phoenix (Pay) make life so interesting for PS employees and supervisors.

 

[dimsum]

Further to, I seem to recall that once GUARDIAN rolls out fully, CF100's are going the way of the Dodo as all leave is going to be submitted and approved in a manner close to what happens with DND civilians.

How do they do it?  Is it electronic leave passes?

 

[garb811]

As their supervisor you get a notification they have submitted leave for you to approve in HRMS.  You then go in, review it and approve it or deny it.  No paperwork, no manual accounting, no yearly leave audits that are  outside the system and no paper copy to be found.