Travel on weekend leave

[Occam]

Agreed, kratz...a properly authorized leave form could have prevented the situation, but since one isn't necessary...(that we're aware of at this point)

Stuff happens.  It gets dealt with as best as possible, and I think the OP did a reasonable job of doing so.

If I had a nickel for every time one of the guys on IR in Ottawa got stuck in Petawawa on the weekend because of a snowstorm or whatever, and couldn't make it in for Monday morning...and none of them ever got written up because of it.

edit:  text in yellow

 

[Fishbone Jones]

There was a time that we carried a "permanent leave pass". It was simply a card, issued by the unit, that had your name and superior's signature on one side and a simple map, showing the radius away from camp you could go without a formal leave pass.

Made things pretty simple. If you were going to be outside the radius, you needed to apply for a normal leave pass.

One other thing we used to do, if you weren't going to make it back because of breakdown, etc was to get the local police or post office to stamp your pass. Even better if there was a local reserve unit or recruiting centre that you could report to.

[sidetrack]
I once stopped in to see General Rad, in Wilno, on the way back to the base from my cottage. He broke out his homemade wine. I was cognizant of my intake because I still had to get to base. However, Rad was having a great time. He called the Unit DO and told him that the young Trooper who had stopped to see him was under orders not to leave until after breakfast the next day and that he would report for duty after lunch. Some people were not very happy and the RSM had a few quiet words for me, but in the end, there was nothing they could do. No harm, no foul ;D.
[/sidetrack]

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Lots of assumptions being made here on facts etc. 

Just because a mbr requests leave does not mean the COfC is obligate to authorize.  5 hours away from your place of duty without a leavr pass is quite far and reg force members are subj to recall at any time; we all know this.

The OP seems to indicate he was given an extra day to get back so where is the problem?  Other than people making assumptions he has been wronged by a lazy sgt and an
unsympathetic CofC.  The leave manual doesn't preclude people from having to be at their place of duty during normal duty hours after a weekend right?  No leave pass usually = absent without leave.

Requesting leave and having it approved are not necessarily joined at the hip. 

 

[Nfld Sapper]

Lots of assumptions being made here on facts etc. 

Just because a mbr requests leave does not mean the COfC is obligate to authorize.  5 hours away from your place of duty without a leavr pass is quite far and reg force members are subj to recall at any time; we all know this.

The OP seems to indicate he was given an extra day to get back so where is the problem?  Other than people making assumptions he has been wronged by a lazy sgt and Ina
sympathetic CofC.  The leave manual doesn't preclude people from having to be at their place of duty during notm duty hours after a weekend right?  No leave pass usually = absent without leave.

Requesting leave and having it approved are not necessarily joined at the hip.

Even approved leave is not guaranteed... I had Division try and pay out my leave to go on the Divisional EX this year until we (my CoC) pointed out that they can't go against TB rules.....

 

[ballz]

If I had a nickel for every time one of the guys on IR in Ottawa got stuck in Petawawa on the weekend because of a snowstorm or whatever, and couldn't make it in for Monday morning...and none of them ever got written up because of it.

edit:  text in yellow

Generally, the CoC seems to be able to use discretion in these cases. However, this means that sometimes it uses it's discretion the other way. I don't know the OP, but I do know any time I've issued a 5b PDR, it was never because of one isolated incident, the member usually has it coming.

For the OP, you are more than entitled to grieve a 5b PDR. Remember though, a 5b PDR is not a punitive measure (punishment), it's a corrective measure to help facilitate a conversation. This PDR has probably been signed by your Sgt and maybe your Pl Comd. It will likely have absolutely no impact on you, and likely that no one else knows about it (or cares, for that matter). However, if you are grieving something that is just meant to tell you to "sharpen up" because maybe you've been a bit of an admin burden lately (again, I have no idea if this is the case), you will not only be bringing unwanted attention upon yourself from higher up's, but you'll be doing it in a way that shows you don't respond well to being told to correct something.

I issued a 5b PDR to a Master Corporal who thought he should have been a Sergeant. He was generally a pain in the rear, but he had a real bad performance that week, dismounting the LAV on an attack without his helmet on and a whole host of other stupid things (the kind of s**t you expect from a no-hook private until his 2IC kicks him in the nuts). I gave him a 5b PDR for it and he decided, instead of taking a good hard look in the mirror, to grieve it. I wished I could be a fly on the wall when the OC and the CSM spoke to him privately about his "Notice of Intent to Grieve" and why he thought it was wrong to expect so much of him. He did himself no favours, I'll tell you that much....

 

[PuckChaser]

So "do as I say and not as I do" is still an acceptable principle of leadership?

No, but sarcastically questioning a superior's actions to justify your own is insubordinate and wrong as well.

 

[stellarpanther]

No, but sarcastically questioning a superior's actions to justify your own is insubordinate and wrong as well.

It may very well be borderline insubordination to sarcastically question a higher rank but if this Sgt sounds like a hypocrite to me.  Too many people in the military hide behind rank to get themselves out of properly dealing with subordinates.  I once had a Sgt that offered anyone $100 if they could show him a reference that shows mbr's need a leave pass to go out of the area.  A JAG officer once told me that even unit policy on the subject is questionable and not very enforceable.

 

[WinnieThePooh]

"Basically on the sunday, broke down. Mechanic was close friend of the family ish, called him at home explaining it was an emergency. He came out and it was a bad alternator bearing and it blew the belt that was on the same line as the power steering. He said i would need a new one, wouldn't be able to get it until the next day.

So now this is 4-5 ish at night, im stranded with my wife around 5 hours drive away.  I phone my Sgt informing him of the situation, I want to phone in an annual leave pass because their is always a blank one on file signed with blank date.
Sgt is mad but what is he going to do.

Car is not ready the next day. Chain of command will not entertain another annual."

Your "emergency" doesn't equate to military emergency. Most Units req X amount of days for planning purposes for leave passes. For example, if a soldier gave me a leave pass the day prior to an Ex and I had reasons to deny it, so be it, leave is not guaranteed. If you went the way of grievance because of your car, good luck...

As an aside, what would be your expectations of your grievance.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

I'd have summarized it as "Was out of area on weekend leave IAW CF Leave policy manual, car broke down.  Contacted Sgt in order to use 'emergency' leave form sitting under his desk blotter, pre-prepared for just this kind of reason. Sgt got bent and twisted for having to carry out his role as a supervisor, but granted leave for Monday.  Car was not able to be repaired Monday.  Informed Sgt.  Sgt denied another day's leave.  Took steps to arrive at normal place and time of duty for Tuesday.  Written up on a PDR for violation of some unspecified policy or regulation."

Does that accurately reflect the situation?

So "do as I say and not as I do" is still an acceptable principle of leadership?

You're making the mistake of taking the info provided as complete and unbiased.

Again, just because there is an 'emergency leave pass' on file doesn't mean the CofC "shall approve it". 

You've determined "the Sgt" actually said this and assumed it as fact which we have no way to know.

Your summary is good, if you were acting as counsel to the accused.  ;D

 

[Occam]

I haven't made any mistake.  I think the OP knows that if he's slanted the story, then the advice he's going to get won't be valid.

You're stating the obvious - of course there's no obligation for the CoC to grant the emergency leave.  However, according to the OP, the Sgt granted the one day of leave so that the OP didn't have to worry about making it to work for Monday morning.  If you're going to approve the short fuse leave, don't turn around and write the member up for not taking proper care of his personal admin.  He asked for the leave, you granted it, it's done with.  If you deny the leave, and the member doesn't make it to work on time for Monday morning, then we have a problem.  But granting the leave and then turning around and writing up the member?  Yeah, not spot on.  The OP did what he's supposed to do, which is keep the CoC informed.

And of course I've assumed the Sgt actually said this; have we any evidence to the contrary?

I don't know about you, but I'd feel morally bankrupt knowing I wrote up a subordinate for allegedly not submitting a leave form to travel out of area for the weekend, knowing full well that I didn't bother to submit one to do the same damn thing myself.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

If you think someone's subordinate who is in hot water would never slant the story to their benefit...you must not have had that many subordinates when you were still in the mob.  ;D

I don't think the issue is that the mbr was where he was;  I'd hazard a guess that the real issue is the 'not able to make it back to place on duty' for Monday. 

Again, we don't know unit policies, mbr's svc history, anything like that.  I'm saying don't be too quick to judge based on unsubstantiated comments.  It might not serve the mbr well in the end.  His GSK isn't all that great to start with; he doesn't know the difference between a PDR and PER, as an example.

 

[Occam]

I'd also like to think that if I'm seeking opinion from complete strangers on an internet forum, it would behoove me to present the story as closely as possible to the truth so that I got relevant advice.  Now if I were simply grumbling and looking for people to commiserate with, I might be inclined to spin it more in my favour, but I don't see that in this case.

I'd tend to agree with you about what the real issue is here...but again, it goes back to the fact that the Sgt granted the extra day.  The whole "under the table leave form just for emergencies" was meant for exactly this type of situation (rightly or wrongly, as kratz has mentioned).  If you're going to grant the day of leave to deal with the situation, don't beat the member over the head with the form. 

And the PER/PDR confusion did not go unnoticed. 

 

[TCM621]

There are few things to keep clear here:

1. No matter what anyone here thinks one should do, there is no requirement to put in a leave pass during a normal weekend day off. There is no requirement to even inform your CoC.

2. Notwithstanding the above, it is the mbrs responsibility to make it to work on time; and as such, to make reasonable preparations to do so.

3. The CAF, like any other employer, must understand that shit happens. A local policy should be in place to deal with any unforeseen circumstances. This could include the emergency leave pass.

If I am reading this situation correctly, the mbr headed on weekend travel IAW regulations. He made reasonable plans to make it to work on time. His car broke down and he contacted his CoC to deal with the issue as he was locally instructed. As far as that goes, he did nothing wrong. He appears to be to one attempting to make things work.

If there is a failure here, it rest with his CoC. The Sgt. could have explained at the get go that the mbr would have 1 day of leave approved and must be at work on Tuesday regardless of the status of the car. At that point, there is no confusion and if the mbr was not at work on Tuesday, he would have been awol. Otherwise, shit like this happens.

 

[George Wallace]

There are few things to keep clear here:

1. No matter what anyone here thinks one should do, there is no requirement to put in a leave pass during a normal weekend day off. There is no requirement to even inform your CoC.

2. Notwithstanding the above, it is the mbrs responsibility to make it to work on time; and as such, to make reasonable preparations to do so.

3. The CAF, like any other employer, must understand that shit happens. A local policy should be in place to deal with any unforeseen circumstances. This could include the emergency leave pass.

If I am reading this situation correctly, the mbr headed on weekend travel IAW regulations. He made reasonable plans to make it to work on time. His car broke down and he contacted his CoC to deal with the issue as he was locally instructed. As far as that goes, he did nothing wrong. He appears to be to one attempting to make things work.

If there is a failure here, it rest with his CoC. The Sgt. could have explained at the get go that the mbr would have 1 day of leave approved and must be at work on Tuesday regardless of the status of the car. At that point, there is no confusion and if the mbr was not at work on Tuesday, he would have been awol. Otherwise, shit like this happens.

OK.....It is now fair for all to assume that a quick trip to Vagas, Friday night and return on a Red-eye on Sunday night, without a Leave Pass, is legit.  Thanks.

 

[Occam]

OK.....It is now fair for all to assume that a quick trip to Vagas, Friday night and return on a Red-eye on Sunday night, without a Leave Pass, is legit.  Thanks.

I think you missed this earlier in the thread:

A CF 100 is not required for a member proceeding exclusively on weekends and/or designated or other holidays, except when:
*      when travelling to a foreign country, or to a country other than the one where the member is employed;
*      when travel benefits are requested (eg. LTA); or
*      when required for ration accounting purposes for members authorized to draw rations on a continuous basis.

The OP quoted the exact passage from the Leave Policy manual.

 

[Zoomie]

There are few things to keep clear here:

1. No matter what anyone here thinks one should do, there is no requirement to put in a leave pass during a normal weekend day off. There is no requirement to even inform your CoC.

It is and has always been the CO's prerogative to instill tighter restrictions on the parent document (ie leave manual).  My RO's specifically state that if I decide to go outside of X kms from home station - I will submit a weekend leave pass.  This is a legal order - no more grey area - very much black and white.  Debate ended.  Why are we even debating this?

 

[Occam]

It is and has always been the CO's prerogative to instill tighter restrictions on the parent document (ie leave manual).  My RO's specifically state that if I decide to go outside of X kms from home station - I will submit a weekend leave pass.  This is a legal order - no more grey area - very much black and white.  Debate ended.  Why are we even debating this?

Because in the absence of the tighter restrictions that may be imposed by certain units on certain personnel, the Leave Manual is the policy to be followed?

If the OP's unit/base hasn't directed that they need an approved CF 100 to proceed out of area on weekend leave, then they don't need to submit one.  Debate ended.

 

[George Wallace]

I think you missed this earlier in the thread:

The OP quoted the exact passage from the Leave Policy manual.

I think you missed my point.  Let's change Vagas to East or West Coast then.....Just for your viewing pleasure.

 

[Occam]

I think you missed my point.  Let's change Vagas to East or West Coast then.....Just for your viewing pleasure.

Nothing missed here. 

Hypothetical situation.  I'm an east coast sailor who decides to take a weekend jaunt to Esquimalt without a CF 100.  My unit/base has no requirement for a CF 100 for weekend leave, regardless of distance travelled. 

What charge are you going to lay against me?

 

[George Wallace]

Because in the absence of the tighter restrictions that may be imposed by certain units on certain personnel, the Leave Manual is the policy to be followed?

If the OP's unit/base hasn't directed that they need an approved CF 100 to proceed out of area on weekend leave, then they don't need to submit one.  Debate ended.

If the OP is from a unit in Petawawa, then your point is moot.  All the units in Petawawa have those restrictions covered in their Unit Standing Orders, with clearly defined maps to show exactly where and where not to go.  As Ditch pointed out; "Why are we even debating this?" when it is "Barrackroom Lawyers" trying to find a loophole where none exists.