Tory minority in jeopardy as opposition talks coalition. Will there be another election?

[McG]

Well MCG the majority certainly did not vote for Stephie DeYawn, and they certainly did not vote for Iggy Liberal King in waiting who could not even run for the top job during the election.

Are you attempting to hide flaws in your logic by attacking arguments that I have not made?  I never suggested that the majority voted for those two parties.  You, however, did presented us with the notion that there would be some mass out-cry from Canadian's if the GG were to invite a coalition to form the government.  You stated that Canadians would take offense to having their votes "overturned."

That is logic is ludicrous in light of the fact that the majority of Canadians did not vote Conservative.  A minority of Canadians certainly could feel slighted, but nothing to the extent that would see the GG position destroyed.  I suspect that most Canadians would be pleased or at least content with any solution that avoids a second election in less than a year.  I am off the opinion that your assumption is wrong.  Attacking arguments that I have not made does not change your wrongness.

... but, if you do want to get into who the majority of Canadians did vote for, you will find that a Coalition government would represent greater than 50% of the voter turnout.  It is true that the Conservatives did have a plurality of the popular vote.  However, between the Liberals, NDP and Block (and we've already covered that a coalition would require all three) a coalition would represent 54.4% of Canadians.  Odds are, nearly all of this 54.4 % would be happy with the GG inviting a coalition to take the reins.

In the end, I also suspect that the average Canadian will recognize that this trend in Canadian polotics is the making and responsibility of politicians on both sides of the floor.

 

[McG]

Here is for the fact checkers:  http://enr.elections.ca/National_e.aspx

 

[Rodahn]

This is nothing less than political treason against everything those two parties have claimed to stand for (on the Liberal side since Confederation).

Does this also hold true if, as reported, it comes to light that the CPC did the same thing during Martins tenure?

 

[Love793]

Why is everyone speculating that the GG will even ask the Loyal Opposition to form a Gov't? She may see right through this and just disolve Parliment, forcing us to the polls again.  Of course the Liberals would be against this, and the NDP would be caught completely by surpise.  I say let them try and bring about a vote of non confidence.

 

[Redeye]

The language filters and G rated nature of this board preclude me from expressing the utter rage I feel against Layton and Dion, the NDP and Liberals. This is nothing less than political treason against everything those two parties have claimed to stand for (on the Liberal side since Confederation).

I don't like the situation any more than you do, but there's not an ounce of treason in anything they're doing.

 

[Jed]

Zip I am in lock step with you wrt Stephen Dion and Jack Layton. Ciivility keeps me from truly expressing my opinion on the motives of these individuals at the ulitimate cost to the country. If anyone truly feels a coalition led government is a serious option then they are truly blinded by their left wing philosopy and / or the dislike of Stephen Harper. Frankly, the only non conservative seats west of Thunder Bay are in big cities. If the eastern half of this country and the big urban centres think that this is going to be the answer then Canada better get ready for a truly strong Western Canada separtist movement, one that will rival the Bloq in Quebec. Give me a break. A coalition with Taliban Jack, a leaderless liberal party and self professed traitors to the country? Let's get serious here.

 

[a_majoor]

We need to think about how we the people should react to this coup. Since this is a grab for taxes and power, we should be prepared to resist in any way possible, including a tax strike (a la John Galt) and various forms of active and passive resistance.

As well, overwhelming the MSM through letters, bogs, posting on their sites, call in radio will push the message through that this is not about the economy but only about grabbing for entitlements from our pockets.

Finally, we can take action directly against the Liberal Party for their part in these events, do everything possible to cause them to spend money, call for the return of the stolen $20 million in ADSCAM money and find out which banks loaned the LPC money for their operating expenses; find out and tell these banks you will withdraw your savings and refuse to do business with them.

Take action now.

Freedom is a self help project.

 

[Kirkhill]

With respect to the federalist / nationalist credentials of Jack and Gilles I would point out that both of them are probably quite familiar with the lyrics of the Internationale.

.....

Duceppe studied political science at the Université de Montréal yet did not complete his program of study. While attending Université de Montréal, he became the general manager of the school's newspaper, Quartier Libre. In his youth, he advocated communism, and held membership in the Worker's Communist Party (Marxist-Leninist). Duceppe later claimed that his three-year membership in the W.C.P. (M.L.) was a mistake brought on by a search for absolute answers [4]. However, during this period - which lasted well into his thirties - he subscribed to militant Maoist ideology and was fired from his job as a hospital orderly for belligerent activities [5]. Duceppe even went so far as to intentionally spoil his 1980 sovereignty-association referendum ballot arguing that Quebecois should instead focus their efforts on staying united to fight their common capitalist enemy[6]. ....

Source

 

[Zell_Dietrich]

I would think so. Without it, we would have even less than a "Minority Government" and be setting ourselves up for yet another election.

We aren't setting ourselves up for anything.  The Tories don't want a stimulus package,  the other three do.  The GG has a choice,  let the Libs/NDP try to run things for a while or allow an election now.  Elections in 6 months sounds better to me than a January vote.

Although,  I do find it funny,  our election was called after Sarah Palin was announced as VP,  we had out voting day before theirs,  It would be funny to have another full election before Obama takes the Oath of office.  :-D

 

[Zell_Dietrich]

http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/article/546198

NDP eyes legal action after Tories tape meeting
TheStar.com - Canada - NDP eyes legal action after Tories tape meeting

November 30, 2008
Bruce Cheadle
THE CANADIAN PRESS

OTTAWA–The NDP says it may pursue criminal charges after the Conservatives covertly listened in, taped and distributed audio of a closed-door NDP strategy session.

NDP Leader Jack Layton can be heard on the tapes boasting to his caucus that he had prepared scenarios to bring down the government with the help of the Bloc Quebecois before the Conservatives issued their recent economic statement.

The caucus talks took place Saturday and a recording of the meeting was delivered to the media on Sunday by Prime Minister Stephen Harper's staff.

In response, NDP MP Thomas Mulcair said the government is panicking and desperate to change the channel on its economic management and may have committed what could be an illegal act.

Mulcair said his party is looking into "the application of the Criminal Code," in the taping.

As for the substance of the call, Mulcair said the talks with the Bloc were perfectly normal consultations between parties in a minority government. They began only after the government's economic update was delivered last Thursday, he said.

And Mulcair pointed as an example to consultations that took place between Layton, Harper and the Bloc's Gilles Duceppe in September 2004 when the Liberals were freshly installed as a minority government.

Harper, who was leader of the Opposition at that time, held lengthy discussions with Layton and Duceppe aimed at supplanting Paul Martin's Liberal government without an election in the fall of 2004.

Those talks did not invoke a coalition, but rather revolved around replacing the elected Liberal minority with a Conservative government led by Harper and supported by the New Democrats and Bloc on an issue-by-issue basis.

During Saturday's conference call, Layton also is heard saying it doesn't matter what the policy issues are, they just need to defeat the Harper minority. He says he hopes a lasting coalition can be built that will survive two or three years in government.

NDP spokesperson Brad Lavigne said the Conservatives are merely trying to deflect attention from the government losing the confidence of the House of Commons.

A spokesperson for the Prime Minister's Office said there was nothing unethical about covertly listening in to the private NDP deliberations, taping those discussions and releasing them to the media.

An unidentified Tory was "invited" to participate in the call, said PMO spokesperson Dimitri Soudas.

"Maybe the invitation was meant for the Bloc, and they accidentally invited us. We were invited. When you get invited somewhere you have the opportunity to choose to participate or not participate."

So the NDP and the Bloc agreed that if the Tories started pulling what they did last election they would approach the Liberals and assure them they can stand up to the Tories - no secret there.  I love how the Tories are all upset that the opposition is using the Bloc to support their proposed government...... just like the Tories did.  (is this another thing to add to the list of things Tories can do/try to do but others can't?)

I know emotions are running high,  we have people secretly taping phone calls and intense power struggles between conflicting ideologies in a troubled and uncertain economy.  I think it is time for a limerick.


Jack and Gilles went up the hill
to take over the house of commons
Jack was proud, to know that now
the economy would be well looked after.

I know it wasn't that good,  I look forward to seeing others be far more creative. 

 

[Reccesoldier]

Are you attempting to hide flaws in your logic by attacking arguments that I have not made?  I never suggested that the majority voted for those two parties.  You, however, did presented us with the notion that there would be some mass out-cry from Canadian's if the GG were to invite a coalition to form the government.  You stated that Canadians would take offense to having their votes "overturned."

That is logic is ludicrous in light of the fact that the majority of Canadians did not vote Conservative.  A minority of Canadians certainly could feel slighted, but nothing to the extent that would see the GG position destroyed.  I suspect that most Canadians would be pleased or at least content with any solution that avoids a second election in less than a year.  I am off the opinion that your assumption is wrong.  Attacking arguments that I have not made does not change your wrongness.

... but, if you do want to get into who the majority of Canadians did vote for, you will find that a Coalition government would represent greater than 50% of the voter turnout.  It is true that the Conservatives did have a plurality of the popular vote.  However, between the Liberals, NDP and Block (and we've already covered that a coalition would require all three) a coalition would represent 54.4% of Canadians.  Odds are, nearly all of this 54.4 % would be happy with the GG inviting a coalition to take the reins.

In the end, I also suspect that the average Canadian will recognize that this trend in Canadian polotics is the making and responsibility of politicians on both sides of the floor.

Not a single Canadian voted for a coalition of Liberals, Socialists and Separatists.

 

[Reccesoldier]

Does this also hold true if, as reported, it comes to light that the CPC did the same thing during Martins tenure?

If this is true I would argue that there is a huge difference between a coalition cobbled together in the face of what appeared at that time to be a case of blatant fraud and Mafia style corruption and one we are now hearing was designed to overturn a legally elected minority parliament even before the speech from the throne had been given.

So the NDP and the Bloc agreed that if the Tories started pulling what they did last election they would approach the Liberals and assure them they can stand up to the Tories - no secret there.  I love how the Tories are all upset that the opposition is using the Bloc to support their proposed government...... just like the Tories did.  (is this another thing to add to the list of things Tories can do/try to do but others can't?)

An election is held to give parliament a fresh start, and the fact that the Conservatives achieved a significantly higher number of seats in Parliament the second time round indicates that MORE Canadians were on side with what they were doing not less.  It's not up to Jack and Gilles to plot the overthrow of the government that the plurality of Canadians decided was in their best interests before parliament even starts.  The fact that Dion was in on this is just another indicator of how low the Liberals have slunk and another indication of Dion's poor judgment (note that Iggy is keeping clear of this train wreck).

 

[Rodahn]

If this is true I would argue that there is a huge difference between a coalition cobbled together in the face of what appeared at that time to be a case of blatant fraud and Mafia style corruption and one we are now hearing was designed to overturn a legally elected minority parliament even before the speech from the throne had been given.

I would argue that there is not a huge difference, the Martin government was also legally elected. As you aptly pointed out the leader of the opposition at the time was in talks with "socialists and separatists" to overthrow the duly elected government, and form a coalition government. Wherein lies the difference?

While I will grant that there was Adscam, that occurred under the leadership of the previous PM.

I suppose that you do not find the following disturbing?

"A spokesperson for the Prime Minister's Office said there was nothing unethical about covertly listening in to the private NDP deliberations, taping those discussions and releasing them to the media."

How about possibly illegal?

 

[Reccesoldier]

I would argue that there is not a huge difference, the Martin government was also legally elected. As you aptly pointed out the leader of the opposition at the time was in talks with "socialists and separatists" to overthrow the duly elected government, and form a coalition government. Wherein lies the difference?

While I will grant that there was Adscam, that occurred under the leadership of the previous PM.

I disagree, obviously.

I suppose that you do not find the following disturbing?

"A spokesperson for the Prime Minister's Office said there was nothing unethical about covertly listening in to the private NDP deliberations, taping those discussions and releasing them to the media."

How about possibly illegal?

No I don't.  I am too busy concentrating on the tone and intent of that tape to care about the actions of a nobody Conservative staffer.  I think you will find a lot of people like that.

As for the legality of it, I'm no lawyer but if the guy received an invite to attend this teleconference and he listened in sure that's pretty sketchy, because he knew it was the enemies phone line, but he was invited and the law is going to have a hard time pressing that the listening was illegal. 

As for taping it I dare say that if this guys lawyer can prove that he wasn't the only one who did record it, and that everyone knew the conversation would be taped (which I would think would be standard practice for a caucus meeting like this) again the opposition lawyers will have a tough time making it illegal for one invited participant and having it be legal for another.

All of this aside... the information is already known, it's too late for Jack and Gilles to put the genie back in the bottle.  Western Canada is becoming more and more angry as this thing progresses and this information, that the Conservatives were never going to be allowed to function as a government is one hell of a straw.

 

[observor 69]

Can you say Dawn Black Defence Minister.  >

 

[The Bread Guy]

Western Canada is becoming more and more angry as this thing progresses and this information, that the Conservatives were never going to be allowed to function as a government is one hell of a straw.

I can see why you and the others are royally pissed here, but calling this a coup?

a sudden and decisive change of government illegally or by force

Sudden?  Yes. 
Decisive?  Far from it. 
Illegal?  No. 
By force?  No.

Not a single Canadian voted for a coalition of Liberals, Socialists and Separatists.

Of course not - that wasn't an option on the ballot I filled out, and I'm guessing it wasn't elsewhere.  Did you see anywhere on the ballot us voting for another election so soon after this last one?

....the fact that the Conservatives achieved a significantly higher number of seats in Parliament the second time round indicates that MORE Canadians were on side with what they were doing not less.  It's not up to Jack and Gilles to plot the overthrow of the government that the plurality of Canadians decided was in their best interests before parliament even starts....

If you're talking SEATS, voters wanted more Conservatives.  If you're talking PLURALITY of votes, not only do Canadians want the Conservatives less than last time (5.205M votes now vs. 5.374M votes last time), MORE voted against the Conservatives for across-Canada parties this time than last (6.147M now vs. 6.068M last election).  Stats attached to show I'm not pulling these figures outta someplace dark & nasty. 

If the GG can constitutionally do this, I'd rather the Bad News Bears give it a go than spend another $200M+ on another election so soon.  That said, any real coalition holding together would have to be based on the Bloc putting down the separatism gun to our heads - I believe they're left-of-centre enough in social policies to find at least some mutual operating space with Jack and Gilles. 

How likely is the Bloc to drop separatism from their radar, though, and how long would all three of these parties agree to play nice together?  Given this idea, for example

Can you say Dawn Black Defence Minister.  >

I can't see how differences in OTHER policy areas would allow such a coalition-of-the-unexpected to stick together in even the medium term.

As for the legality of it, I'm no lawyer but if the guy received an invite to attend this teleconference and he listened in sure that's pretty sketchy, because he knew it was the enemies phone line, but he was invited and the law is going to have a hard time pressing that the listening was illegal. 

Bang on - if you're invited, it's not illegal to listen in....

As for taping it I dare say that if this guys lawyer can prove that he wasn't the only one who did record it, and that everyone knew the conversation would be taped (which I would think would be standard practice for a caucus meeting like this) again the opposition lawyers will have a tough time making it illegal for one invited participant and having it be legal for another.

...but this I'm not so sure on.  I'M NOT A LAWYER EITHER, but the last time I read up on this, it's legal in Canada to record a phone conversation as long as at least one of the participants knows it's being recorded.  I know that applies to citizens, and I also know if the Government of Canada records phone calls in dealing with clients, they have to advise the caller that they could be taped and why.  All that said, don't how these apply:
1)  in the more political realms of the Government; and
2)  when there's more than one person on the other end of the phone.

 

[Infanteer]

Ahhh....nothing like a Constitutional Crisis for Christmas...and a war and a major recession to boot!  May you live in interesting times indeed!

At least the Americans have decisiveness in their divisiveness.  The antiquated nature of our creaking system, not intended for what it's used for, is being revealed as we speak.

 

[Kirkhill]

Ahhh....nothing like a Constitutional Crisis for Christmas...and a war and a major recession to boot!  May you live in interesting times indeed!

At least the Americans have decisiveness in their divisiveness.  The antiquated nature of our creaking system, not intended for what it's used for, is being revealed as we speak.

Somebody suggested stocking up on Beans and Bullion in times like these.  I am now encouraged to add Beer to the list.

Only with alcohol can I truly appreciate the entertainment value of this gong show.

I have now truly reached the DILLIGAS stage of enlightenment.

 

[helpup]

Well said for living in interesting times.  So we have the prospect of a Coalition being born in Canada. And it couldn't of come at a worse time.  I am of the opinion that if it does happen it will be very entertaining on one level and embarrassing on another.  Then with all the goodies and money thrown out everywhere by a LIBLOCNDP  Govt I cant wait to see how much we are going to increase our Deficit.  The only good thing to come out of it will be the much needed infrastructure upgraded through out the country.  Any takers on if it will even go where needed?  So for as long as the Coalition lasts ( if it happens) I can forsee the next election burying the Liberal/NDP and maybe finally the BLOC. 

I still think that Harper didn't need to be so belligerent with the start of this Govt, but the wait and see attitude and the no worry line.... Well I didn't mind that at all.  Why should we go running around saying the sky is falling and make plans before we even know what the elephant next door is going to do.  Waiting to see the plan they come up with and to make ours compliment it sounds like the best approach to me.

 

[JackD]

Well, two cents or zloties from Poland where i reside, this country (Poland) does not have first-passed-the-post style elections, hence, coalition governments, almost every two months it seems a new one - nothing gets done, no stability, the politicos are basically a bunch of braying jackasses - fat cats who look no farther than their own bank accounts... coming to Canada now?