Toronto tests response to terrorist attacks

[George Wallace]

How high did you just blow your hat?    A full page of hot air pontificating in circles and coming to no logical conclusion.   It has been pointed out to you that Drills are done in Training to get personnel to work as a team and efficiently.   Your ramblings about training for higher causes are crap.   We train for every likely scenario we can imagine.   The Public doesn't dictate what we do in our training, we do.   Just because you have some other wild idea of what we should train for, doesn't mean that the training we are doing is meaningless.   You are not the CDS.   You have no idea of what your immediate Commander has in his Training Plan.   Obviously you have no clue of what we train for, how we train for it, and why we train that way.   Can you honestly tell us that you are a member of an elite team, whose members have remained the same since you all joined, with no changes, and that you can retain everything you have been taught in the past?   I doubt it.   That is why we have "Drills" and why we must continually start at "Square One" over and over again (Especially in the Reserves or with Non Combat Arms).   Oh Well!   The main questions of this Thread were answered on the first page.  On that note:  http://www.talklikeapirate.com/piratehome.html

 

[paracowboy]

How many times have you been ...a plan and did a show of comfort more so then an actual show of ability.  I guess only time will tell if they carry out more of these exercises and at a larger scale and intensity with all of the special operations groups that may be involved.

good point, BUUUUT you gotta start somewhere, right? Walk before you run, all that jazz.

 

[Michael Dorosh]

Without stateting the obvious, I was trying to explain that "the forte of the infantry" is not the sole task of the military while on deployment, and to train strictly to that end is a fool's game, but possibly worthwhile for those that will never deploy.

Wow.  If you really need training in shovelling snow, I'd recommend not transferring out our way anytime soon, you're bound to be disappointed.   

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Quote from CTD,
You are now at the peak of the battle, all of a sudden your main comms shuts down, you no longer have comms with any one out side of Platoon let alone Company. Running low on ammo and water.  Now fast track a few hours ahead. You finally find out what happened, turns out the HQ element has been captured and or incapacitated, your Regimental comms has been devastated, your codes no longer work the enemy has jammed all out going and in comming radio messages. Your forces have now become less effective as a force.

Sound like a far fetched scenario, well yes it is. Do we ever try to work at that level. No. We train at the lower levels for reasons, Money being the biggest factor. Our actual perceived competence level. Their is nothing wrong with doing the basics of training and reinforcing them time and time again. But at some point we must move onto a level of training where we can branch out and work at things we normally do not practice

Hmmm, I'll wager you were not in a 2 RCHA  Command Post between the years 78-86...........

 

[childs56]

Intersting point about not knowing what is at the commanders intent. Usually at the beginning of the fiscal year units carry out a brief as to the new year of training, this will include what the Commanders intent for the next 12 or so months is. This usually encompasses BTS,  for some Units and Brigades Work up training for a Roto over seas even takings for training for the summer and Regimental schools. Maybe for duty with the IRF,(what ever they call it now)

I never once said that I was a member of an elite team (special operations group) meaning all the agency's with in the disaster response team. Be it Civie or Military. They may include special dogs sniffing teams, chemical defense teams, special divers, recovery crews trained in urban search and rescue, heavy search and rescue, Special fire fighting, the list goes on and they are all special operations with in their own agency's. I am not how ever a special operations person my self.  Nor have i ever claimed to be. If i gave that impression then i am sorry for that

I can see though that we are not trained to respond to these situations. The response to BC for preparedness in case of an earth quake? the forest fire response how ever over whelming it was, it showed a lack of efficiency with in our level of preparedness to respond to a disaster with in our own borders. We can not respond to a disaster the same as we do a war. We need to stream line and be able to work with in the local authorities their expectations. This includes knowing what capabilities they have and how we can work with them to enhance them and ours. They also need to know what we can actually bring to the table not and our capabilities.  If you cant see that then maybe you should only train to kill people.

It is funny and also discouraging to hear such comments,  "training for higher causes are crap" made by a member. If we only ever trained in the basic drills then how do we ever prepare for other such emergencies or situations that may arise? Seems very few units use to train for land mines and convoy duties. I think they spend some more time doing that now. How about ROE training. That is all higher training I think.

I am not disputing the need for training at the basic level, but we also need training at the higher level for the troops. They are the ones whom are going to have to crawl under buildings in bulky gear to help people, they are the ones to do mass decontamination of persons, they are the ones whom shall be patrolling the streets of their towns and city's,  Better to train together with these agency's before it happens then wait for it to happen and just go with the flow and make it work.

The response to the subway exercises by the Government is the same as the one done in BC for an earth quake, only done to appease the public. This after threats, and disaster else where happened. It only lasts for a short time and then the Government wipes it brow and carry on to more intresting things. 

You say the public has not dictated how we train, Well tell that to the people through out the past few years in the training system whom have seen a decline in training due to publics reluctance to spend more money on the CF, To buy new helos until it was in the public intrest (ie voting power) to get them. How about the levels of training with in the schools where they have cut out portions such as live fires and that. All to save money so we can appease the public and say that we have tightend our budget. That is how the public controls our level of training. It has suffered and the Chain of Command has stated that for the past few years, they are now trying to get the money and resources in place to get back up to where we should be.

My point for all this is that the civil agency's and the Department of Defense should all work together at the lowest level of planning and work their way up. That way if they ever have to respond to any type of attack or large disaster they have the basic skills of each other to work with.  We need to practice the basics, this includes all agency's involve regardless...

You know what Bruce I was waiting for some one to mention a hint to the past where i have no doubt you and others had the experience to go through some very good training. But not many of the older crowd around. I chuckle over your comment.   

 

[Fishbone Jones]

How many times have you been on an exercises to do the same (almost) exact training. It gets boring, people get complacent and things get missed. The troops get bored as do the officers.  

I'll let you answer the bold part of your above question first.

Think of this. You are on your typical ex, where the Guns are firing, tanks are crashing around, Infantry every where, fuel trucks are resupplying, Fast air is moving in dropping bombs, the Helo's are in bound to pick you up, a mere few hours earlier you did a beach assault from landing craft that left the destroyer group pacific.

I can only suppose your not talking about the Canadian Forces here. If you are, the answer to your first question should be zero. We haven't had an ex like that since before you were in diapers.

You are now at the peak of the battle, all of a sudden your main comms shuts down, you no longer have comms with any one out side of Platoon let alone Company. Running low on ammo and water.
Now fast track a few hours ahead. You finally find out what happened, turns out the HQ element has been captured and or incapacitated, your Regimental comms has been devastated, your codes no longer work the enemy has jammed all out going and in comming radio messages. Your forces have now become less effective as a force.

The bolded portion describes most Canadian exercises anyway.

Sound like a far fetched scenario, well yes it is. Do we ever try to work at that level. No. We train at the lower levels for reasons, Money being the biggest factor. Our actual perceived competence level. Their is nothing wrong with doing the basics of training and reinforcing them time and time again. But at some point we must move onto a level of training where we can branch out and work at things we normally do not practice.

Total chaos? All the time.

Other Military's train like this. They put together a general concept of Operations for a given scenario, (usually a realistic one they have encountered with in the last few years) they practice this till they have the basics down. They also throw wrenches into the system so that they can properly evaluate the team. Ie take out the C&C, or down A/C, maybe even deny resupply of fuel so vehicles are not available. To know ahead of schedule what where, when and how you are training is good to a very rudimentary point. I mean such things as your drills for actions on and your RV's, how to re suppply, mines encounters etc are all very important to a soldier for basic skills.

I don't think you really have a good grasp of what it takes, co-ord and logistic wise, to put on a good ex, like you speak of. We have neither the time, or money to do it. Not an excuse, just the way it is.

The need to improve onto those skills at a higher level be it Military or civie is just as important. At a higher level i mean for the individual them selves to attain that higher level. It just isn't good enough for us to practice a basic drill  time and time again, we must progress beyond that basic ability and strive for a much higher one. Especially if lives of Canadians is at risk.

Basic drills practiced time and again are what teach a soldier to act instincivley in a given situation. If you master the basics, permutations and adaptations are much easier to impliment when needed on the two way range.

Why did TO conduct this subway/building training ex. Due to the public wanting to see some action taken by the government to prove they were prepared after the Bombings in London and the confirmation that Canada was also on the HIT list for the terrorist's.  Typical of a group under pressure they put together an exercises that I have no doubt went off with out any major hitches.( i in no way mean to insult the responders on the ground or question their abilities). That is because they wanted it to.  

TO conducted the practice because the subway is a likely and logical target. I'd rather them practice and make their mistakes now, than later, when they can't afford to.

Your analogy of martial arts is a good one. But if you only ever train at the lower level of martial arts then you will never attain a higher level of ability and you will always be at the lower level of the spectrum.   I agree though that you need the basics and should always have time set aside to practice the basics. But your plan should never be the basics. That gives false sense of a persons ability to not only them but to others that may rely on them.  

I am not sure if you interpreted what i originally said as being a Free for all,  I in no way meant to convey that. The bottom line is you must always have a mission with a goal (the goal should not be so easy as to relay a false sense of security for those around). I do think that the government under pressure from the public and also other groups with in The Department Of Defense (not only the CF)and possibly other out side agencies put together a plan and did a show of comfort more so then an actual show of ability.  I guess only time will tell if they carry out more of these exercises and at a larger scale and intensity with all of the special operations groups that may be involved.  

I hope that i didn't step on any ones toes, or get any one to riled up. Also hope that i haven't said anything that may get me in trouble at work.

Cheers guys and girls

Trust me. The CF is no more prepared to handle a bomb in the subway than the civies are, probably less so. There are protocols for the CF to follow when it comes to Aid of the Civil Power. It's been updated constantly and revamped regularly, with consultation by experts on both sides. I'm sure they appreciate your input

 

[George Wallace]

So CTD, you want us to be all seeing, all dancing Bears?  You want all the members of the CF to be fully trained as Fire Fighters, Paramedics, Police, SAR Techs; not as soldiers, sailors or airmen, so that they can react to any emergency that may befall Canada.  A Forest Fire in BC or Quebec, an earthquake, or a flood.  What if these things never happen within your life-time?  What if we should instead go to War?

We have Police, Fire, Ambulance and Rescue Services in the Civilian world for those things.  We, as Gen Hillier said, are not the Public Civil Service; we are the Canadian Forces.....We train to kill.  Handing out Teddy Bears and filling sandbags during a flood are tasks we can fill on the side, but our primary job is to kill when called upon.

I can see though that we are not trained to respond to these situations. The response to BC for preparedness in case of an earth quake? the forest fire response how ever over whelming it was, it showed a lack of efficiency with in our level of preparedness to respond to a disaster with in our own borders. We can not respond to a disaster the same as we do a war. We need to stream line and be able to work with in the local authorities their expectations. This includes knowing what capabilities they have and how we can work with them to enhance them and ours. They also need to know what we can actually bring to the table not and our capabilities.  If you cant see that then maybe you should only train to kill people.

You are really out of touch with:

It is funny and also discouraging to hear such comments,  "training for higher causes are crap" made by a member. If we only ever trained in the basic drills then how do we ever prepare for other such emergencies or situations that may arise? Seems very few units use to train for land mines and convoy duties. I think they spend some more time doing that now. How about ROE training. That is all higher training I think.

I can asure you that most units do Mine Awarness training.  They do cover the ROEs for their taskings.

I am not disputing the need for training at the basic level, but we also need training at the higher level for the troops. They are the ones whom are going to have to crawl under buildings in bulky gear to help people, they are the ones to do mass decontamination of persons, they are the ones whom shall be patrolling the streets of their towns and city's,  Better to train together with these agency's before it happens then wait for it to happen and just go with the flow and make it work.

The response to the subway exercises by the Government is the same as the one done in BC for an earth quake, only done to appease the public. This after threats, and disaster else where happened. It only lasts for a short time and then the Government wipes it brow and carry on to more intresting things.

Again, that is the job of the Civilian 'Specialists', not the military.  Only after the Civilian authorities have run out of resourses will the military come in, but remember the military is equiped for War. 

I find you are using faulty logic with these statements: 

You say the public has not dictated how we train, Well tell that to the people through out the past few years in the training system whom have seen a decline in training due to publics reluctance to spend more money on the CF, To buy new helos until it was in the public intrest (ie voting power) to get them. How about the levels of training with in the schools where they have cut out portions such as live fires and that. All to save money so we can appease the public and say that we have tightend our budget. That is how the public controls our level of training. It has suffered and the Chain of Command has stated that for the past few years, they are now trying to get the money and resources in place to get back up to where we should be.

In that the Gov't has made serious cutbacks to the budget is a fact.  To say that the public dictates how we carry on our individual training is wrong.  We do the best we can with what we have.  Cutbacks to training has happened, but we still decide how we will train, not John Q. Public.

 

[FormerHorseGuard]

i think some of the reasons the City  of Toronto , the Metro Police, Fire, Ambullance, TTC and other civilian groups put on this display  was to see if they  learned anything since becoming a one city  service and wanted to see how they  worked together.

History  lesson here.

not too long ago there was not just one city  in Metro Toronto,  there was North York, Scarborough, Ebitcoke, East York, York, Toronto and I might have left one or two out, not trying to leave anything out. Metro Toronto funded the ambulance services, the Police services,9-1-1,  and the TTC, they  were the only  city  wide services that  crossed the city  limits and could freely  roam from one city  to another.  Fire Services and  Rescue was covered by each city  on its own budget.

There was a major subway accident in the early 90's. Lessons learned there, one the police, fire, ambulance services , TTC , and other rescue services could not talk to one another as their equipment was not the same. They  found out Police, Fire and Ambulance services could not talk to one another or with the TTC under gound as the comms system did not work in the tunnels . Made rescue efforts and other tasks very  difficult and in effective in some offical minds.

Fast forward a few years and the Mega City  of Toronto came into being, creating its own problems, Police and ambulance was already  under the roof of Metro Toronto, they  were just folded into Mega Toronto , but the fire services had to be studied and they had to figure out what  comms system of all the ones already in use was to be used. they had to make it work with the rest of the city. they  corrected some major problems, then they had redisbrute equipment and man power across the city, some fire halls closed  ( in some cases there were 2 in a 8 block area , old city  lines ) unified training system had toocme into play, roles had to be filled and moved.

Fast Forward to the exercise

It was the city if Toronto who wanted to see how their services and man power would respond to a major terror attrack, if your going to train, might as train and test for the worst case possible.  Before a city  can ask for help from another level of government they have to see what  they  have  and what  they have not. cannot request help till youknow your limits.

Should the military  be involved in something like that, no , the likely hood of some military  people being involved at a distance is good.  Some where along the line I am sure they were some higher pay grade making a few calls for research to ask if this happened what  could you provide in 12 hours, 24 hours, 36 hours and 48 hours and in 72 hours. I am sure that  is covered somewhere on the training plan and in the diasater plan.  ( for instances  during the subway  crash they  borrowed field phones from some one so they  could have comms from the accident site to the ops area who lent them i do not know or really care)

It was the city  of Toronto money  being spent on that  training EX, not DND or Ottawa money  so the military  should stay  out till requested.  Before they  can request AIDE TO CIVIL POWER , they have to know the limits of their men, equipment and find out what  they can handle. Sometimes the military  is not the right group to ask for help because the special equipment and people trained to run it is not in the  military.

RES Persons from Toronto area units. Great group of soldiers i am sure, they  can do what  they are trained for.  You have to look at the area in which the units are located and where the troops live and the commute time to the unit HQ before they  could be sent out to help. Not like there is platoon or company  level unit on 24 standby at the various training sites within the city. if a major event  happened in Toronto, most of the res forces would be cut off from the downtown units because of traffic,  distance and the fact the city  might be closed down. Not much help there.

Reg Force
Time to decide what  is being sent, who is being sent, transport, or lack of transport.
Base Borden has lots of troops, lots of training vechiles,  but most of the troops are non combat arms or are troops under traiining at the QL 3 level, not great effective fighting force or aide to civil power force.  Base Trenton, aircraft and airforcetypes are there, lots of planes and stuff but no troops to airlift in.
Base Petawawa, , lots of vechiles, lots of manpower, trained man power,  problem with them is distance to move troops to Southern Ontario. a few helicopters stationed there, air lift maybe 100 troops total  with basic equipment, still 2 hours plus to the city  after lift off.

Those are just some of the basic factors that you have to think about before getting  excited that the military was left out this TRG EX.

I am sure it will be a few months before all the reports are done and edited for mass release on how the various services reactted to the training, how they  will correct the mistakes they  found, I am sure some of it will never be released. I am sure you  will see new equipment dreams from all involved. You will see new equipment purchases in future city and department budgets. Some of you might even see a another training exercise that  has some uniformed military  leaders at , seeing how the Canadian Forces can be of help, or what  the military  might learn from them.

What  I want to see the feeling there is a plan, they know what  to do and I hope never to see them have to use it in real life.

only edited for typos

 

[FormerHorseGuard]

I am not claiming to be the expert here on subway  trains, tunnels, and equipment.  Never in any  CF training program do they cover subway  tunnels, power supply and how the subway  works. 
no two subway  systems in Canada or the world run the same way, different voltages, power supply , means of supplying the power to the equipment.  some are 3rd rail power, some run on rubber wheels, some are mono rail, some are over head wires,different equipment is used on subways in torontot then used in montreal,  get the idea.
i am so what  edcuated in the way a subway train operates and what  safety  devices are in place but no expert.  i was a grunt in a res unit and pay clerk later on, was on BDF force for a base I was on. No one ever covered how to walk or run thru a subway  tunnel and search for bombs or rescue people. That  is some they have specially trained TTC, Fire and Ambulance people , police and securty people for. No army  people are trained for that. it would be a major waste of army  money  to train anyone to do it.
Toronto trains the people to do this and they have the means to train and the means to provide the training.

Army  guys stay  out of train tunnels because they  would get hurt big time. 660 volt 3rd rail cooks faster then you blink.

 

[GNR]

Good point FormerHorseGuard!

It certainly would make sense to start learning that stuff now, instead of having our troops just become another casualty when they are sent in as a last ditch effort.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

GNR,
You still don't get it......by the time the civil authourities called in the military there would be no power to some stupid third rail. Are you not happy just admitting that we are not a big part of the national disaster scheme?

...and to be truthful, you are not doing your troopies any favours if you think that kind of training should take anything away from the core war training they should be doing.

 

[GNR]

Bruce, sadly I have to accept the reality that the CF is not able to respond to something like this, unless it happens on someone else's soil in which case we will team up with the local authorities (and maybe other countries) as part of a task force to help.

That doesn't change that fact that I feel we SHOULD respond.

 

[Old Ranger]

How many times have you been on an exercises to do the same (almost) exact training. It gets boring, people get complacent and things get missed. The troops get bored as do the officers.

That's what a very good Enemy Force is for.
Is there a reason you have to do the same thing.....until it is done right.

These training scenarios are not always politically motivated but need pressure on the politicians to allow the training.

Allot of the scenarios and requests for joint task force training have been submitted years ago.

As Former Horse Guard stated the ever changing/improving T.O. EMS system.  Do you think the Actual Subway accident in the 90's wasn't thought up earlier
as a scenario?
They were able to make improvements from fact and finally get a chance to practice what they plan.

 

[GNR]

Piper, in the spirit of "playing nice", I'll elaborate a bit more, with-out playing into the smart-a$$ comments about the nice big colourful pictures..

The CF should NOT respond until we are asked to

No arguing that.  Sending troops in when they are not required would just add to the already insuing chaos.

(so when the poo really hits the fan)  because with one or two exceptions we have NO units that are trained for this type of problem

Exactly the problem that I am speaking of.  If we have no one trained to react to this type of a problem and we do receive that call we will be more of a hinderance than help.

large ammounts of manpower and/or heavy equipment (i.e. during floods) are needed when civvie resources are exhausted.

So in the case of a terrorist attack in a subway there would be extensive damage to it and the surrounding areas.  The city could probably handle it, but as was mentioned before training is typically completed in a worst case scenario so let's assume it would surpass their efforts.  Therefore it may require more trained feet on the ground either helping with the displaced and wounded OR operating heavy equipment.

Worse case, the terrorists aren't done and more damage starts occuring.

As I mentioned above, if we don't practice these skills WITH the joint forces we will be working with we will be a hinderance instead of help.

We help when civvie resources are exhausted, which will happen long after a first response scenario.

Correct, and if we do not participate in the first response exercises that practice these skills we will fail them if they call on us.  I am not suggesting that we send troops EVERYTIME there is such an exercise, but we should be part of the command element as an advisor and observer.

The command element must understand what they are sending our troops into.  By monitoring and assisting in the effort that the civy response teams are doing we will have a better idea of the civlian capabilities.  And I am SURE that we will be astounded by their capabilities, imagine what they could do if they had more trained people to do the grunt work so they could focus on the advanced skills they have aquired.

The command element must also KNOW what the civy response team is capable of so that he can determine where his troops will best fit in.

We learn that the CF should not be involved in a first response exercise (or a real scenario)

I would imagine there has been instances where we were the first response over seas to disastors both natural and man-made.

The reason the US military forces can work so well as first responders is because they work very closely with the civy services.  They know where they fit in the big puzzle.

We will be called upon, by participating in these exercises we can also answer these questions:
Will we be help or hinderance?
Do we have a grasp on the skills and equipment that are already available and in use by the rest of the response effort?
Where will our troops be of the most benefit?
What equipment do we have that is not already in abundance?

In order to succeed you must prepare, if you fail to prepare, you prepare to fail.
If all crap hits the fan we are EXPECTED to succeed, let's make sure we do.

 

[Michael OLeary]

Exactly the problem that I am speaking of.  If we have no one trained to react to this type of a problem and we do receive that call we will be more of a hinderance than help.

GNR, a significant issue would be detailing exactly what skills need to be trained, how much time and money would be expended on it, and how many different "first response" skill sets would be required by which units.

Also, any attempts to execute cooperative training with municipal or provincial (or even other federal) organizations incurs costs. You can be sure that if DND suddenly declared it an operationsal requirement for any of our units/personnel to train with these agencies, they would be standing there with their bill in hand for us to pay as well.

Could you detail exactly what you had in mind as the critical minimum training you perceive is recommended for all CF personnel, for specific personnel, or for designated units? Also, how much training time and what budgeted items would you accept being reduced to balance the time and financial costs of these new responaibilities you judge to be so critical?

Thank you.

 

[GNR]

Michael, I've never said this was a critical function of the CF, but it IS one that we are expected to do if the crap hits the fan.  With-out participating in these exercises it is impossible to know what is exactly is expected of us.

Do we require more training?  I'm not sure.  Most likely we will require some command training to learn how to best use the skills we already have in a response situation.

I guess we can wait until we are called on and hope for the best, but I think preparing would make more sense.

 

[Michael OLeary]

The reserves from the areas surrounding the incident should be able to help out until the regular force is mobilized.  As Kirkhill pointed out, the local authorities may not be in a state that they will be able to properly respond.  It would make sense to draw from outside help.  Reservists SHOULD be trained as first responders.

2ndly, I know it is currently not the Reserves 'Raison d'etre' to be Emergency Responders, thus my saying "SHOULD be trained as first responders".

.......

I stand firm in my belief that the CF should be one of the first responders to a terrorist situation on our soil. 

........

If we fail to prepare ourselves for the task and we are called on (especially as a last resort) we will fail.

......

So let me get this straight,  no one else feels they need to protect the soil we live on??
The rest of you feel if we have a terrorist attack we are to rely on the civy services to mop up the situation and protect our citizens?

It's no wonder I have seen posting questioning if we need a military.

.........

I guess that is why I find it even more shocking that members of the CF feel that they don't need to be there.  The civy streets expects you to be there.

I have seen most of the kit and training that the civy services have, and I am not saying we should replace them.
I simply feel that we should be part of the anti-terrorism effort here in Canada.

Bruce, sadly I have to accept the reality that the CF is not able to respond to something like this, unless it happens on someone else's soil in which case we will team up with the local authorities (and maybe other countries) as part of a task force to help.

That doesn't change that fact that I feel we SHOULD respond.

..........

As I mentioned above, if we don't practice these skills WITH the joint forces we will be working with we will be a hinderance instead of help.

Correct, and if we do not participate in the first response exercises that practice these skills we will fail them if they call on us.  I am not suggesting that we send troops EVERYTIME there is such an exercise, but we should be part of the command element as an advisor and observer.

.............

We will be called upon, by participating in these exercises we can also answer these questions:
Will we be help or hinderance?
Do we have a grasp on the skills and equipment that are already available and in use by the rest of the response effort?
Where will our troops be of the most benefit?
What equipment do we have that is not already in abundance?

In order to succeed you must prepare, if you fail to prepare, you prepare to fail.
If all crap hits the fan we are EXPECTED to succeed, let's make sure we do.

GNR,

you have repeated stated in this thread that we should be preparing our troops as first responders, with an emphasis on counter-terorism, that we should be trained, and you stated that we will fail if we do not prepare.

That sounds to me like a clear indication that you feel that there are specific things we should be training NOW to do later in case of emergency.

I am only asking you to expand on your argument and detail two principal points:

(a) training who to what, exactly?, and

(b) what current training do we decrease to enable this? (Because there's not going to be more money just because we want to add this to our skillsets.)

 

[FormerHorseGuard]

after reading various  and watching various news reports on the Canadian Efforts in the States.
I see one huge problem with calling out the military  in civil respose.
LAW SUITS.
CanadianForces  Doctors , NURSES, MEDIC , not allowed to treat US Civilians because of risk of lawsuits and who would pay  for the lawsuit if sued, Canadian Forces, Canadian Government, or US Government. That is one major stumbling block for the CF  med people to overcome.
So medical teams need to have some sort of coverage provided to protect them from lawsuit. ( Res persons have private practices they  might wish to protect from lawsuits unlike the Reg Force side of the house. ) So not many  RES force medical team people might not want to don the uniform to do the job on a Canadian city  soil. Imight be wrong but I know i would worry  about being sued while dealing with a joe blow medical problem, so anything beyond basic first aide, i would want a AJAG person to tell me the limits and the coverage and protect the Forces are going to give me.

The Res units in the cities could provide a huge amount of log support, trucks, heavy  equipment,( but a lot of the bigger toys are now being pooled at training centers ???? )  weapons would be a gray  area,  command and control area, use of drill squares and such , could be a given if cleared by  higher,  rest and sleep quarters.

they  could provide a lot of things but it would all have to come thru  the higher chain of command.  we all know that  chain of command decesions are not made after a few minutes of thinking,  and this would have to passed up and down, taking time.  Especially  time consuming considering the RES UNIT A  has a full time staff of maybe 10 to 15 people,  request comes in  SNR person calls CO who is part timer, he considers it, passes it up to District HQ , considers it passes it on to Area , area passes it on LFC HQ and then it gets to NDHQ , and cabinet Minister and PMO , they make final yes or no, then it passes back down the chain
could be 1 to?????? how many  days for it to work its way  back to that  RES unit A

OR mayor of city  ZZZZ calls the Ontario government and the requests start there, ontario calls Ottawa , then PMO, Minister call NDHQ and down the chain goes the Order. LFC to AREA,  Area to District,  finally  to unit,  remembering CO is part timer and he has to be called in, he  comes reads the order, he started the telephone chain to go out and bring in the troops.  how many  hours or days would pass before the first RES unit Soldier is on the ground providing the aid or equipment required?

Res units as first responders is not a great idea too time consuming, unless they  do something to speed it up:

1) skip various levels of the chain of command.  a mayor did that  once, called the base for snow removal,  it happens but it made everyone look sort of stupid
2) speed up the res recall system, issue every  res soldier a pager and put them on some sort of alert shift?
3) remove heavy  equipment from training centers for a just in case role, defeats the idea of a training pool, waste time borrowing and returning equipment
4) leave it as is and hope the higher ups have a system in place for this ?
5) how many  res force soldiers can be called away  in less then 24 hours notice and be there?
6) how res soldiers have kit packed and ready?
all questions to think about and answer

 

[GNR]

We have been slotted with the task of being the final solution, should the crap hit the fan.  We are expected to succeed, right?

As I said earlier, being that we have not been actively part of the effort I can't say what skills we need, those would come to light in participation of a first response exercise.  It is possible that the skills we already have can be used for responding.  I don't have a list of new skills, and haven't determined if these new skills would take precedence over skills we are currently trained in.

I never intended to suggest there are specific skills we should be training, just that we (maybe just one or two individuals) should be part of the effort and training, from the begining, so that when the crap hits the fan and we send in troops we are able to succeed.

Those individuals would be able to determine after witnessing a few of these exercises if we require any new skills or where we could use the ones we currently have.

Most likely most of our troops would fill in so that the skilled response workers can complete their work.  But our engineers for example probably have some skills that would be a great asset. (That is just one example, I'll bet others in the forum can think of examples where their training can be used in a response to a terrorist attack).  If we were to practice those specific skills in a first response scenario it would make us better at the job when we get the call to respond.

This kind of practice could be the training that makes a difference between our being successful and failing.

Don't forget the first responders to the situation will be the police, firefighters and EMS.  But if we are called in, we would be the first responders to each scenario from that point forward.

But I have already said all this, rather than continuing to repeat myself on these points, I have to ask are you a couple questions:
Do you feel we should just hope for the best rather than observe and determine if we need to make changes?
Can you see any advantage to our participating in one of these exercises?
Is there a disadvantage to our participation?

Curiously, is there already a liason between the civy responders and the military?  If so, have they witnessed similiar exercises to the one in TO?  Have they made any recommendations that have effected our training?  Or have they determined a way to use our current skill sets in a first response scenario?

 

[GNR]

all questions to think about and answer

Yup Horseguard you are right, we have lots to sort out so that if we do get the call we know what the heck we are doing.
Participating in a couple of these exercises would help take the guess work out.