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Toronto tests response to terrorist attacks

So let me get this straight,  no one else feels they need to protect the soil we live on??
The rest of you feel if we have a terrorist attack we are to rely on the civy services to mop up the situation and protect our citizens?
GNR,
I think that your original question into why the CF has been answered by the many posts.  Just so we are straight, the  posters did not even come close to making a statement that they don't care.  It has been stated that this was first intial response test of local procedures. period.  As for the CF's role then it would be follow-up action on the State or network that was responsible for the local attack or compliment the local agencies once the resources had become strapped. 
, but we are expected to participate if things go BAD, wouldn't it have been good for recruiting and public image to have been part of the recent test in TO?
It would be better if we dealt with doing a better job of informing the public on our actions abroad so they fully understand why we are there.
 
Lets face it...When the army comes out to play on home turf, things are way beyond really bad!

That's not something I ever want to see again or participate in!

Thinking that we may have had to shoot other Canadian citizens is not what its all about.

Slim
 
Bruce, in a training situation we want to be be seen...it gives those on the civy street a warm and fuzzy feeling.

Sorry Slim, I didn't realise this would go on SO long.  We are in a democracy so I have to conceed to the majority even if I don't agree of what the CF posn should be in this case.

Thanks for the debate.  I know it's not what we train for, and I know we are only a last ditch effort.  But keep in mind, if we don't train with the rest of responders we will fail them when they need us the most.

Being in the public eye is just a perk to the type of training specified.
 
GNR said:
.   But keep in mind, if we don't train with the rest of responders we will fail them when they need us the most.

Being in the public eye is just a perk to the type of training specified.

The worst thing that happened during OKA was that someone lit an immersion heater and gave it too much gas. So it made a boom (as usual) there were several RCMP officers who were there who thought that the nindians had started shooting.

As we no longer use the immersion heater in the field I can safely assume that this training requirement has been overcome by circumstances. ;D

Just kidding...The CF is not required for domestic terrorism except in the most extreme measures..Can we stop talking about this now please?!
 
Quote,
Bruce, in a training situation we want to be be seen...it gives those on the civy street a warm and fuzzy feeling.

WHAT???  WHO CARES???We are not talking about loading sandbags or something here, training is not for show, training is for go.
Next time I do tactical training to quell a riot maybe I should just bring the inmates in to watch,....so they can get a "warm fuzzy feeling."
[ and they probably would knowing exactly what we are planning to do next]

Sorry Slim, had this typed out already and with my slow fat fingers didn't want to erase it :crybaby:
 
Bruce, your missing the point, the training is so that we don't fail, the viewing by the public is just a perk to help with public image and recruiting.

Sorry Slim, I am done.
 
GNR said:
Thanks for the debate.   I know it's not what we train for, and I know we are only a last ditch effort.   But keep in mind, if we don't train with the rest of responders we will fail them when they need us the most.
it's been established that we were there. The people who run the admin/organizing were tested. Us grunts just gotta show up and follow orders.


Being in the public eye is just a perk to the type of training specified
not in this case, I think. Remember, we are only deployed in Canada when the poop is well and fully splattered all over the oscillating whatcha-hoosis (or when the beautiful people in Toronto might get their shoes wet from shovelling their own darn sidewalks  ::) ). In cases of Emergency, troops in the street, in full fightin' an' dyin' gear, are a negative. We add to the scariness. To civvies, troops in ordinary combats handing out aid is comforting. Troops in Fighting Order are scary.

edited because, apparently I can't spell the word "get"
 
I was unaware that we were part of the effort, the article I found didn't say that.
And you're right, we don't need to put troops on the city streets, just be part of the effort.

If the article would have said that I wouldn't have even started this debate.

Thanks for the clarification Paracowboy!

(I know, I said I was done Slim, maybe you should just lock it?  ;) )
 
The CF being part of the command element is still participating, being part of the first response....monitoring that command element would help us to establish just how we could fit into it.

 
GNR said:
The CF being part of the command element is still participating, being part of the first response....monitoring that command element would help us to establish just how we could fit into it.

GNR

This has been done to death

You've had your answer several times now.

Lets all find something else to talk about regarding this issue or I forsee a loc on the horizon.

 
I trained with the TO EMS CBRN response team a few years ago, when they were trying to figure their role and what was required. They've made massive strides since. They are capable and competent. Short of a massive breakdown in the social order, they can take care of the situation, without us.

We have military pers, in the guise of CIMIC and LOs that are available and in contact with their civil counterparts. The give the heads up to the Commander that the civies MAY need our help and what kind, so we can be ready SHOULD they ask.

If your house catches fire, the municipality takes care of it, if you can't. If it spreads to the block and surrounding area, it may take nearby municipalities and counties to help. If it spreads to the point the above can't handle it, it becomes the province's responsibility. When half the province is on fire, the feds will step in with all the resources available, lastly, and to include the military. That's the C of C, and we can't break it without the say so of the fed gov't.

Most times, unless it's catastrophic and beyond the logistics of the civies, we just get in the way.
 
GNR said:
1st, they are not MY reservists.  Although I would LOVE to have my own personal Army.  ;D

2ndly, I know it is currently not the Reserves 'Raison d'etre' to be Emergency Responders, thus my saying "SHOULD be trained as first responders".

3rdly, just where would they be getting "Recalled" from?  It was an exercise, reservists do exercises all the time.  And if it came down to the real thing the reserves seemed to respond fairly quickly to disastors in the last few years.  (For example: Operation Ice Storm and the Manitoba Floods)

I think my Regiment is a little too busy training to close with and destroy the enemy to learn how to shovel sidewalks, pile corpses, or hand out blankets in Toronto...
 
Michael Dorosh said:
I think my Regiment is a little too busy training to close with and destroy the enemy to learn how to shovel sidewalks, pile corpses, or hand out blankets in Toronto...

Substitute, or paraphrase:

I think my Regiment is a little too busy training to close with and destroy the enemy to learn how to shovel sidewalks (of snow, shit, mud, body parts) pile corpses, or hand out blankets in Toronto(Kabul, Khandahar, Bosnia, Haiti, Seirra Leone.....)

A pretty pompous, and out of touch statement, if you ask me.


So your Regiment is to busy to learn to do what the rest of the Forces does when overseas?
 
Well, one would suppose that shovelling sidewalks is not as chalenging a task as closing with and destroying and whatnot, and so would require less training.
 
Without stateting the obvious, I was trying to explain that "the forte of the infantry" is not the sole task of the military while on deployment, and to train strictly to that end is a fool's game, but possibly worthwhile for those that will never deploy.
 
If the civie agency has the abilities to work with in a mass NBC, explosion or other disaster threat then my hat is off to them, the reality is they are not fully prepared to. One thing i find with most of these exercises in disaster response is that they are staged, almost to an exact script. Every one knows what is going to happen, how it is going to happen and what the end result will be. Almost as if on que things happen. We all know that when a big situation comes up, it is not always on que or follow any of our previous planning.

One thing i hate the most is the false sense of security that we have and we portray to our people in how great our preparedness is or was. Our local authorities and the CF have done very little to foster the team work and the realities of a joint preparedness group. Yes the higher ups in the organizations have the best laid plans that all work when they do a script. Almost like acting. Yet we know that if you put troops on the ground to do more then just shovel side walks and cut trees and distribute food. (meaning securing sites with weapons and Armoured vehicles) their will be much more of a planning stage needed. (protesters, some of whom may be your friends and such)

This stage starts with an overall concept of operations, then moves onto a a more detailed concept for individual situations, (IE nuclear, chem, ice storms, earth quakes, fires, floods etc). The fact that a foot on the ground is always refereed to as the best method to train and prepare for a situation. (The saying TRAIN FOR WAR IN PEACE TIME is most befitting, even for these lesser of disasters).

Some will disagree, and say that we do not have to put feet on the ground as soldiers to be able to respond to a disaster. I can tell you it sure helps out though, things such as familiarity with the area, the people and the obstacles that are their helps. These skills go on a larger  scale then just that single area or training aspect. The skills learnt and developed can be used any where else you want, and or may deploy in the future.

The aspect of a small attack in the sub way of TO, and then a bomb attack just mere blocks away is great to get feet wet and people to flush out skills. How many people were involved, what level were they notified prior to that this was an exercises, many more questions.

We need to look beyond our old relic days of one thought training and look into the larger scale of things and be prepared for them. Things such as being able to transport food, water and emergency personal to all points in Canada in time of need, with out the use of air ports, road ways or mountain passes. Have a stock pile of usable food and fuel.

I have to get going back to work. 


 
Allott of people ( I find anyway) seem to think that these excesizes, which are scripted, are a bad thing!

Ever do martial arts? What do we do in martial arts...we do drills so that we know the proper steps and how things are supposed to work out, even if its only to know when something is going wrong.

Having a free-for-all with our emergency services does not accomplish anythng!

Having a drill tha teaches people how a specific event should play out is far more beneficial.
 
CTD said:
One thing i find with most of these exercises in disaster response is that they are staged, almost to an exact script. Every one knows what is going to happen, how it is going to happen and what the end result will be. Almost as if on que things happen. We all know that when a big situation comes up, it is not always on que or follow any of our previous planning.

Lost my original reply,

2nd attempt.

The Exercises are for all the Allied Agencies to learn to work together in a safe environment and to find out what capabilities each have to offer.

During Basic, How much "pepper potting" do you do?
Do you use blanks, t-flashes and arty sims?...safe learning environment.

At least there is an effort to improve.

I like the rest of your post but I cannot answer your specific questions about that scenario.
I'll try to get a copy of the after action reports and let you know.
 
How many times have you been on an exercises to do the same (almost) exact training. It gets boring, people get complacent and things get missed. The troops get bored as do the officers.  

Think of this. You are on your typical ex, where the Guns are firing, tanks are crashing around, Infantry every where, fuel trucks are resupplying, Fast air is moving in dropping bombs, the Helo's are in bound to pick you up, a mere few hours earlier you did a beach assault from landing craft that left the destroyer group pacific.

You are now at the peak of the battle, all of a sudden your main comms shuts down, you no longer have comms with any one out side of Platoon let alone Company. Running low on ammo and water.  Now fast track a few hours ahead. You finally find out what happened, turns out the HQ element has been captured and or incapacitated, your Regimental comms has been devastated, your codes no longer work the enemy has jammed all out going and in comming radio messages. Your forces have now become less effective as a force.

Sound like a far fetched scenario, well yes it is. Do we ever try to work at that level. No. We train at the lower levels for reasons, Money being the biggest factor. Our actual perceived competence level. Their is nothing wrong with doing the basics of training and reinforcing them time and time again. But at some point we must move onto a level of training where we can branch out and work at things we normally do not practice.

Other Military's train like this. They put together a general concept of Operations for a given scenario, (usually a realistic one they have encountered with in the last few years) they practice this till they have the basics down. They also throw wrenches into the system so that they can properly evaluate the team. Ie take out the C&C, or down A/C, maybe even deny resupply of fuel so vehicles are not available. To know ahead of schedule what where, when and how you are training is good to a very rudimentary point. I mean such things as your drills for actions on and your RV's, how to re suppply, mines encounters etc are all very important to a soldier for basic skills.

The need to improve onto those skills at a higher level be it Military or civie is just as important. At a higher level i mean for the individual them selves to attain that higher level. It just isn't good enough for us to practice a basic drill  time and time again, we must progress beyond that basic ability and strive for a much higher one. Especially if lives of Canadians is at risk.

Why did TO conduct this subway/building training ex. Due to the public wanting to see some action taken by the government to prove they were prepared after the Bombings in London and the confirmation that Canada was also on the HIT list for the terrorist's.  Typical of a group under pressure they put together an exercises that I have no doubt went off with out any major hitches.( i in no way mean to insult the responders on the ground or question their abilities). That is because they wanted it to.  

Your analogy of martial arts is a good one. But if you only ever train at the lower level of martial arts then you will never attain a higher level of ability and you will always be at the lower level of the spectrum.   I agree though that you need the basics and should always have time set aside to practice the basics. But your plan should never be the basics. That gives false sense of a persons ability to not only them but to others that may rely on them.  

I am not sure if you interpreted what i originally said as being a Free for all,  I in no way meant to convey that. The bottom line is you must always have a mission with a goal (the goal should not be so easy as to relay a false sense of security for those around). I do think that the government under pressure from the public and also other groups with in The Department Of Defense (not only the CF)and possibly other out side agencies put together a plan and did a show of comfort more so then an actual show of ability.  I guess only time will tell if they carry out more of these exercises and at a larger scale and intensity with all of the special operations groups that may be involved.  

I hope that i didn't step on any ones toes, or get any one to riled up. Also hope that i haven't said anything that may get me in trouble at work.

Cheers guys and girls
 
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