Tim Hortons in Theatre Merged Thread (in AFG, no plans to preposition)

[Journeyman]

....but the past is better remembered than lived.....

That's not freakin' another pips & crowns reference, is it?    >

 

[The_Falcon]

Canadian Forces have always been better paid than most. The guys used to razz me about joining the marines to get 200/mo as a Sgt (plus 65/mo combat pay) when I could be making more in the CF.

that said, about a year ago or so, someone posted a comparison. There didn't seem to be that much difference, but the past is better remembered than lived..... ;D

Maybe not between us and the Americans, but talking to the Europeans, the difference is huge.

 

[PAdm]

My lack of connectivity has let me catch up and see where this thread was headed. Clearly there is a variety of viewpoints as to the legitimacy of Tim's at KAF. I believe it made sense at that time and circumstance from a leadership, corporate, and morale and welfare perspectives. If I was CDS, I would have championed it and made it happen. If you we're CDS, in all honesty, would you have killed the idea?  And I am looking for that one counter argument that demonstrates the KAF Tim's as a flawed idea. That said, we do not need to have a few trailers ready to go out the door as part of theatre activation. 

 

[UnwiseCritic]

In all honesty if I were CDS I would not have killed the idea. I would have endorsed it, made a quick publicity stunt with the troops (perhaps help serve some of the first coffees with other senior leadership). But all time and money invested would be on Tim Hortons. They would have to come up with a plan, and require my approval.

 

[dapaterson]

Were I CDS, my priority would have been the deployment of a larger, sustainable force, able to take and hold ground and effect change.

I would have reduced the PSP/NPF footprint to a bare minimum.  As long as we are carrying our creature comforts along, we're not carrying ammo to fight, or supplies to build & support the Afghans, and we're not living with the locals and sharing their world.



In other words, my priority would have been to drive for strategic success, vice tactical.

 

[George Wallace]

Really?  At 100K a pop, they were a pittance to purchase.  My question is why would the CAF buy them and not PSP who run CANEX?  In Germany ( I know; a Germany story ) the Sally Ann ran the Brocky Wagons and small canteens.  The British NAAFI also ran Brocky Trucks out into the Field.  This is more in line with what PSP and CANEX should be doing, not the CAF or DND.

 

[dapaterson]

They were PSP.  PSP does receive public funds support from DND/CAF, so it's a wash.

And $100K is not a pittance - there's also the transport to theatre; sustainment of supplies in theatre; additional personnel in theatre who require additional food & water, pre-deployment training back in Canada... a whole lot of additional costs to create an additional barrier between the soldiers and the mission.  "You continue living in poverty & fear.  We'll go back behind the wire & enjoy our lifestyle.  Gee, why do you resent us?"

 

[George Wallace]

:

You're totally missing what he's saying.  Tim Horton's is a symptom of a problem.

On the other hand, I think you have had a whole lot of this fly right over your head.


A fairly large chunk of Canada's most visible "diplomatic" personalities and actions/activities are carried out by the members of the Canadian Armed Forces.  If Tim Horton's outlets that accompany them to some of the most remote areas of the world serve to compliment that, then Timmies too can be considered that as well. 

  Don't worry; it will come with time.

 

[George Wallace]

They were PSP.  PSP does receive public funds support from DND/CAF, so it's a wash.

And $100K is not a pittance - there's also the transport to theatre; sustainment of supplies in theatre; additional personnel in theatre who require additional food & water, pre-deployment training back in Canada... a whole lot of additional costs to create an additional barrier between the soldiers and the mission. ........

I would argue that so many other more needed items, etc. that cost millions, or even billions, really does make the cost of these trailers very small in comparison.  And there are many other purchases that make this cost pale in comparison.  They too would often require your list of extras: transportation, sustainment supplies, additional personnel with rations and quarters, extra training, etc.  I do accept that some of the cost may require participation from the CAF logistics chain to become a reality, but not all.  There are/were many other civilians who are/were being supported in theatre besides Tim Horton's personnel; some with PSP and some not.  As an example; reporters, and many others were indoctrinated, the same as PSP personnel, by the PSTC prior to deploying overseas. 

 

[Teager]

I don't understand for those who argue this was a creature comfort and we could have done without. Yes, we could have done with out but the same problems would still arise as soldiers would go to different sources such as Green Bean, Burger King, Subway, Pizza Hut, or the British Naff ti. I know a lot of those were removed by the Americans but my point is if you wanted that type of creature comfort you could get it. Did Tim Hortons's interfere with my job? Absolutely not. Was it nice to have a timmies coffee coming in from the field? Yes. Should the CAF be paying for it? IMO no.

Just my  :2c:

 

[Ex Ranger Instructor]

On the other hand, I think you have had a whole lot of this fly right over your head.


A fairly large chunk of Canada's most visible "diplomatic" personalities and actions/activities are carried out by the members of the Canadian Armed Forces.  If Tim Horton's outlets that accompany them to some of the most remote areas of the world serve to compliment that, then Timmies too can be considered that as well. 

  Don't worry; it will come with time.

KAF is hardly one of the most remote areas of the world.  KAF is a big, sprawling megabase that includes all manner of useless crap like massage parlours and Tim Horton's.  There is zero complimentary operational effect achieved by placing a donut shop in KAF.  All it does is promote an us vs them mentality, and that's a distraction that we don't need.  DA Paterson hit it right on the head.

 

[Towards_the_gap]

Were I CDS, my priority would have been the deployment of a larger, sustainable force, able to take and hold ground and effect change.

I would have reduced the PSP/NPF footprint to a bare minimum.  As long as we are carrying our creature comforts along, we're not carrying ammo to fight, or supplies to build & support the Afghans, and we're not living with the locals and sharing their world.



In other words, my priority would have been to drive for strategic success, vice tactical.

Well said good sir, my point exactly.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

With what army though?  As Clauswitz would say, "war is the continuation of politics by other means" and our deployment to Kandahar was purely political in nature.  Afghanistan is a limited war where success or failure has no real impact on the average Canadian.  So I ask why?  Why would you contribute more forces and resources to the fight then we did and what would be your stated objective?  How much would you contribute?  A Brigade?  Another Battlegroup? 

I don't think us contributing significantly more forces would help our government achieve its political objectives at all, in fact I think it would be detrimental to them but that is the political scientist coming out in me.  I'll add another argument to the topic of why it was important that we had Tim Horton's in theatre and one that has not been brought up yet.

I think this is one of the many forms of political boosterism we saw emerge during the war in Afghanistan in order to have the Canadian population believe that the government of the day was providing the best equipment and resources for troops deployed overseas.  It fit in quite nicely with the whole "support our troops" campaign and was carefully designed to demonstrate that we were providing the best service we could to the troops in the field. 

 

[Dirt Digger]

After having to get a McGuire-based C-17 to fly it into theatre, I like to think that we developed a heavy lift capability to move that Tim Horton's trailer around.  ;D

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Meanwhile back at the ranch......

The U.S. military has erected a 64,000-square-foot headquarters building on the dusty moonscape of southwestern Afghanistan that comes with all the tools to wage a modern war. A vast operations center with tiered seating. A briefing theater. Spacious offices. Fancy chairs. Powerful air conditioning.

Everything, that is, except troops.

The White House is debating a complete pullout of U.S. troops from Afghanistan in 2014 even as new projects are finished there.

The White House is debating a complete pullout of U.S. troops from Afghanistan in 2014 even as new projects are finished there.

The windowless, two-story structure, which is larger than a football field, was completed this year at a cost of $34 million. But the military has no plans to ever use it. Commanders in the area, who insisted three years ago that they did not need the building, now are in the process of withdrawing forces and see no reason to move into the new facility.

Rest of the article; http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/a-brand-new-us-military-headquarters-in-afghanistan-and-nobody-to-use-it/2013/07/09/2bb73728-e8cd-11e2-a301-ea5a8116d211_story.html

 

[OldSolduer]

I am not against amenities for the troops.

What I am against is catering to their every whim and wish.

Know your troops and promote their welfare does not include making sure they have access to Burger King nor ensuring they have access to the net 7/24.

I've said what I have to say. Feel free to disagree

 

[PAdm]

I am not against amenities for the troops.

What I am against is catering to their every whim and wish.

Know your troops and promote their welfare does not include making sure they have access to Burger King nor ensuring they have access to the net 7/24.

I've said what I have to say. Feel free to disagree

I agree that basics need to be addressed but the catering to every whim is a problem with the entitlement culture. So I agree with you there.

This topic is funny because if Tim's never happened, I do not believe you would have seen a single bullet or bean move into theatre faster, nor more of them. I feel the Tim's was inevitable given our national mandate and timeline. Cannot prove any of this however. So I say "no harm done" wrt the KAF Tim's, but the CDS better manage expectations moving forward into our next major theatre.

 

[GAP]

So I say "no harm done" wrt the KAF Tim's, but the CDS better manage expectations moving forward into our next major theatre.

From the outside looking in......it was a brilliant move by the government. It showed support for the troops, gave a bit of Canada far away from home, it made me feel good about the move.

Remember, most Canadians were not aware of the amount of other stuff on the boardwalk. Most that knew about it that I talked to thought it was the only outlet the Canadians had.

I also remember 26 months of zero amenities except the village kids willing to sell us Tiger Beer, MJ, and a few other things, as we patrolled thru the villes. A 3 day incountry R&R was looked forward to. As was the once a 13 month tour; 5 day outcountry R&R .

 

[Towards_the_gap]

I think this is one of the many forms of political boosterism we saw emerge during the war in Afghanistan in order to have the Canadian population believe that the government of the day was providing the best equipment and resources for troops deployed overseas.  It fit in quite nicely with the whole "support our troops" campaign and was carefully designed to demonstrate that we were providing the best service we could to the troops in the field.

I'll take quiet, realistic beans and bullets support over the red-shirt-wearing-yellow-ribbon-tying-mile-wide-and-inch-deep support that was culminated in the KAF Timmies.

Did the soldiers need double doubles and donuts? No. They needed proper boots, proper load bearing equipment, and tons of life saving equipment that we never saw until the end, or never saw at all. But johnny canuck felt great that he dropped $10 in the legion collection plate so that a hard working Canadian peacekeeper could have a coffee. It makes me laugh, and just a little sick to my stomach. 

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

I'll take quiet, realistic beans and bullets support over the red-shirt-wearing-yellow-ribbon-tying-mile-wide-and-inch-deep support that was culminated in the KAF Timmies.

Did the soldiers need double doubles and donuts? No. They needed proper boots, proper load bearing equipment, and tons of life saving equipment that we never saw until the end, or never saw at all. But johnny canuck felt great that he dropped $10 in the legion collection plate so that a hard working Canadian peacekeeper could have a coffee. It makes me laugh, and just a little sick to my stomach.

Agreed; however, this is the reality we face.  It is unfortunate but at least if we understand this then the leadership can work our way around it and potentially use this to our advantage.