Tim Hortons in Theatre Merged Thread (in AFG, no plans to preposition)

[Teager]

I'll take quiet, realistic beans and bullets support over the red-shirt-wearing-yellow-ribbon-tying-mile-wide-and-inch-deep support that was culminated in the KAF Timmies.

Did the soldiers need double doubles and donuts? No. They needed proper boots, proper load bearing equipment, and tons of life saving equipment that we never saw until the end, or never saw at all. But johnny canuck felt great that he dropped $10 in the legion collection plate so that a hard working Canadian peacekeeper could have a coffee. It makes me laugh, and just a little sick to my stomach. 

To be honest I'd rather have people back home showing some support than standing in the street protesting about the war and calling soldiers baby killers. The support that they show has gone much farther than just tossing in $10 for a timmies gift card. Because of the support theres been heavy media attention on soldiers and that has helped the injured/ill improve things and families of the fallen get better looked after. It has also helped show how outdated a lot of our equipment was and the public was wanting better equipment for the soldiers. We did recieve better equipment but it does take time to get that. Without the support I think the government would have felt less pressure to kit us out better.

Also guys would recieve tons of cookies, chocolate and lots of junk goodies from back home so I don't see eating donuts or having a coffee as a very bad thing.

The problem with equipment is it can always be better or there can always be more of it.

 

[PAdm]

Agreed; however, this is the reality we face.  It is unfortunate but at least if we understand this then the leadership can work our way around it and potentially use this to our advantage. 

Thanks for this. I believe this is one of my main points in summary. The Cdn public cannot cope with the true cost of equipping and running a military. The fact that the Sea King helicopter is celebrating its 50th anniversary with no replacement yet in our hands is what makes me sick to my stomach. So the fact that leadership and corporate turned a tan double double into a goodwill campaign for Canadians is a means to an end. It gave us pubic support which facilitated fast track purchases. It will never give us all the bullets and beans we need, but I believe we were/are better off writ large because of the Tim's than had it never popped up.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

Thanks for this. I believe this is one of my main points in summary. The Cdn public cannot cope with the true cost of equipping and running a military. The fact that the Sea King helicopter is celebrating its 50th anniversary with no replacement yet in our hands is what makes me sick to my stomach. So the fact that leadership and corporate turned a tan double double into a goodwill campaign for Canadians is a means to an end. It gave us pubic support which facilitated fast track purchases. It will never give us all the bullets and beans we need, but I believe we were/are better off writ large because of the Tim's than had it never popped up.

Winning the public relations battle is important.  We weren't always good at it but we have gotten a lot better.  It is important that we are able to connect with Canadians on an emotional plane so that they continue to show us support.  Serving Tim Hortons coffee in Kandahar fulfilled this as Tim Horton's is something that Canadians of all walks of life can identify with.

Consider it just another part of our IA campaign and you will quickly see that it did pay dividends.

 

[dimsum]

Winning the public relations battle is important.  We weren't always good at it but we have gotten a lot better.  It is important that we are able to connect with Canadians on an emotional plane so that they continue to show us support.  Serving Tim Hortons coffee in Kandahar fulfilled this as Tim Horton's is something that Canadians of all walks of life can identify with.

Consider it just another part of our IA campaign and you will quickly see that it did pay dividends.

QFMFT.  Again.  You sure you aren't a PAO hiding under that capbadge?  >

 

[jollyjacktar]

:

Winning the public relations battle is important.  We weren't always good at it but we have gotten a lot better.  It is important that we are able to connect with Canadians on an emotional plane so that they continue to show us support.  Serving Tim Hortons coffee in Kandahar fulfilled this as Tim Horton's is something that Canadians of all walks of life can identify with.

Consider it just another part of our IA campaign and you will quickly see that it did pay dividends.

:goodpost:

This is exactly the point.  We also need to win hearts and minds at home.  The money I saw going out the door was a flood compared to the cost of a buy in by the Canadian public at large.  The amount of space keeping Tim's running on supply runs in couldn't have possibly been that drastic or detrimental to the mission.  Shyte boots et al wasn't caused by Tim's.  I'm just waiting for someone to claim it caused global warming too  :

 

[Towards_the_gap]

All that donut baking certainly didn't reduce our carbon footprint.....jus sayin....

 

[The Bread Guy]

QFMFT.  Again.  You sure you aren't a PAO hiding under that capbadge?  >

Impossible - his writing doesn't feel like it was "written by committee" and subject to a zillion levels of approvals  >

 

[Good2Golf]

The misconception is that money spent on Tim's would have otherwise 100% been used effectively elsewhere (boots, replace threadbare CADPAT, etc...).

The reality, as noted in public records, is that DND fails to spend hundreds of millions of dollars...that's HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS of dollars of its budget each and every year. With a peak $21B, that was still only a few percent...actually not bad in one sense, given that private industry even has a hard time hitting budgets with such accuracy.

However, it is a fallacy to believe or to causally link other programmatic shortfalls to the provision of troop welfare and secondary/tertiary effects of building public support through increased awareness of the goings on of a Marion's soldiers on operations. 

Regards
G2G

 

[Journeyman]

You sure you aren't a PAO .....

Oh man, what a crappy thing to say.   

 

[Edward Campbell]

The misconception is that money spent on Tim's would have otherwise 100% been used effectively elsewhere (boots, replace threadbare CADPAT, etc...).

The reality, as noted in public records, is that DND fails to spend hundreds of millions of dollars...that's HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS of dollars of its budget each and every year. With a peak $21B, that was still only a few percent...actually not bad in one sense, given that private industry even has a hard time hitting budgets with such accuracy.

However, it is a fallacy to believe or to causally link other programmatic shortfalls to the provision of troop welfare and secondary/tertiary effects of building public support through increased awareness of the goings on of a Marion's soldiers on operations. 

Regards
G2G

Indeed; see this, from the CBC: "New figures from the parliamentary budget office show National Defence hasn't spent billions of dollars set aside for it during the last budget year in a continuing trend that's being described as deficit slashing by stealth.

The data on quarterly expenditures in the federal government show that by the end of the last fiscal year in March, the department had spent $2.3 billion less than what was allocated by Parliament.

That's more than 10 per cent of the annual defence appropriation, which also happens to be the single biggest discretionary line item in the federal budget."

 

[Towards_the_gap]

I understand that the $100k or whatever it was that got timmies to kaf did not mean less new boots that year, but energy was expended to make it happen, energy (staff work, etc) that could have been put to better use. Nor do I believe that it helped the pr battle back home. Sure Joe Canuck thought the troops were being supported, but that's because all he saw was grinning troops slurping coffee and watching ball hockey, they didn't see the PBI out in the villages pushing the rock up the mountain again and again.

Basically, I still fail to see how it contributed to the destruction of the TB or contributed to the protection of coalition forces.

 

[PAdm]

Were I CDS, my priority would have been the deployment of a larger, sustainable force, able to take and hold ground and effect change.

I would have reduced the PSP/NPF footprint to a bare minimum.  As long as we are carrying our creature comforts along, we're not carrying ammo to fight, or supplies to build & support the Afghans, and we're not living with the locals and sharing their world.



In other words, my priority would have been to drive for strategic success, vice tactical.

Neither the USA nor NATO as a group were/are able to place enough assets to drive for strategic success.  The CDS had no real influence there. I say seize success when you can. The CF does amazing work in Afghanistan and paid a price. If Tim's helped to bolster troop morale and made the public feel good, then i say the CDS was brilliant. Strategic success was not a meeting he was invited to.

 

[PAdm]

I understand that the $100k or whatever it was that got timmies to kaf did not mean less new boots that year, but energy was expended to make it happen, energy (staff work, etc) that could have been put to better use. Nor do I believe that it helped the pr battle back home. Sure Joe Canuck thought the troops were being supported, but that's because all he saw was grinning troops slurping coffee and watching ball hockey, they didn't see the PBI out in the villages pushing the rock up the mountain again and again.

Basically, I still fail to see how it contributed to the destruction of the TB or contributed to the protection of coalition forces.

It did not contribute.  It played a completely different role/had a completely different audience. This was an internal Canadian play. But do not think it was useless as it was not a direct line to the defeat of the enemy. We could strip out other things as well if that logic prevails, but the mission overall would suffer eventually. As an Admin guy I tell my operator friends that they can ignore me today, tomorrow, or next week, but eventually the pers issue I am dealing with will eat significantly into their command team focus. Same with Tim's. not a critical issue, but made a difference overall. If toms never happened, there would have been some other M&R issue to occupy time and space in the overall scheme of things, the time, effort and money did detract from anything of significance. 

As always, just one man's opinion.

 

[George Wallace]

I understand that the $100k or whatever it was that got timmies to kaf did not mean less new boots that year, but energy was expended to make it happen, energy (staff work, etc) that could have been put to better use. Nor do I believe that it helped the pr battle back home. Sure Joe Canuck thought the troops were being supported, but that's because all he saw was grinning troops slurping coffee and watching ball hockey, they didn't see the PBI out in the villages pushing the rock up the mountain again and again.

Basically, I still fail to see how it contributed to the destruction of the TB or contributed to the protection of coalition forces.

As we have discussed Ad nauseam in another topic, a lot of staff work, etc. is wasted on things that could have been put to better use.  At least at the Timmies you could have a coffee and relax.  What are we all wasting time on Pips and Crowns for?  Will they help us to destruct the TB or any other belligerent that we may face in the future?  Needless staff work and expense is wasted on so many projects; Tim Horton's was relatively minor in the scheme of things considering.  It didn't call for a devolution of our history.

 

[Towards_the_gap]

Humph...I guess it just sticks in my craw, even after releasing, that this, the KAF timmies, was always trotted out, amongst other tat, as evidence of how world class 'our canadian forces' are/were, and gave everyone warm and fuzzies while in the real world things were much much worse.

 

[Ex Ranger Instructor]

Humph...I guess it just sticks in my craw, even after releasing, that this, the KAF timmies, was always trotted out, amongst other tat, as evidence of how world class 'our canadian forces' are/were, and gave everyone warm and fuzzies while in the real world things were much much worse.

This.

I understand that the $100k or whatever it was that got timmies to kaf did not mean less new boots that year, but energy was expended to make it happen, energy (staff work, etc) that could have been put to better use. Nor do I believe that it helped the pr battle back home. Sure Joe Canuck thought the troops were being supported, but that's because all he saw was grinning troops slurping coffee and watching ball hockey, they didn't see the PBI out in the villages pushing the rock up the mountain again and again.

Basically, I still fail to see how it contributed to the destruction of the TB or contributed to the protection of coalition forces.

And this.

The Tim Horton's, Massage Parlour, and other niceties did nothing for the operational effectiveness of KAF and I for one don't buy the IO effect idea for one minute.  Such message, if it ever existed, was limited to the Canadian population.  Again, I am not sold on this message having ever been delivered, but hold that belief if you want to.

Even if that message was delivered back home, the effect in theater was different.  What the delivery of BS amenities to KAF achieved in theatre was the further entrenchment of an us vs them mentality that I personally found to be counterproductive.  It's tough to feel that you're on the same team as someone that gets to drink ice caps when you're sweating your bag off in an austere COP and wishing that you were someplace else.  I had the opportunity to see both sides of the coin on my tour there in 2008-09, and I believe the overall effect was negative.  The people in KAF had more than enough civilized amenities such as showers, laundry services, air-conditioned accomodations, and the like.  They didn't need any more.  I say this having been (for the most part) one of them.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

This.

And this.

The Tim Horton's, Massage Parlour, and other niceties did nothing for the operational effectiveness of KAF and I for one don't buy the IO effect idea for one minute.  Such message, if it ever existed, was limited to the Canadian population.  Again, I am not sold on this message having ever been delivered, but hold that belief if you want to.

Even if that message was delivered back home, the effect in theater was different.  What the delivery of BS amenities to KAF achieved in theatre was the further entrenchment of an us vs them mentality that I personally found to be counterproductive.  It's tough to feel that you're on the same team as someone that gets to drink ice caps when you're sweating your bag off in an austere COP and wishing that you were someplace else.  I had the opportunity to see both sides of the coin on my tour there in 2008-09, and I believe the overall effect was negative.  The people in KAF had more than enough civilized amenities such as showers, laundry services, air-conditioned accomodations, and the like.  They didn't need any more.  I say this having been (for the most part) one of them.

This is what you are not tracking - a lot of these decisions are not made by soldiers, rather, they are made by senior bureaucrats and politicians at the PMOs office.  If you think their is a magical organization within DND dreaming up such wonderful ideas as pips and crowns or putting Timmy's in KAF well I hate to burst your bubble but your wrong. 

The stuff that goes on at this level is almost always politically-driven in nature.  It is the nature of the beast and it isn't going to change so you need to learn to live with it and leverage it to your advantage.  We received really great support from the Canadian population and made some great capital acquisitions (Howitzer's, MBTs, Strategic Airlift, New Helicopters, Patrol Vehicles, UAVs)  Don't tell me we would have gotten any of this had we not been in Afghanistan and had widespread support for the soldiers serving overseas.

How about we bring back rum rations to the frontlines  ;D I'd be more then happy to let the KAFer's sip their Latte's if it means I can have a few swigs of Appleton Reserve every night  >

 

[The Bread Guy]

.... What are we all wasting time on Pips and Crowns for?  Will they help us to destruct the TB or any other belligerent that we may face in the future? ....

Need a coffee here - I thought you meant Treasury Board.

Or did you?  >

 

[Ex Ranger Instructor]

This is what you are not tracking

I'm tracking the fact that some think this way quite well thank you.  I don't buy it however.  Your interperetation of politics and their impact on defence policy needs a bit of clarification for me: please state your case whereby the insertion of Tim Hortons directly impacted on our procurement policy or any of the other goodies you mention.  I fail to see how the donut shop led to Leopard II's.  If you feel strongly that this was the case and care to educate me on the specifics and nuances of how these two were linked then feel free.  In the meantime, I will continue to believe that Tim's was a bullshit distraction from the real mission that made certain people feel good, but did little in the end. 

Edit for clarity

 

[Fishbone Jones]

The Tim Horton's, Massage Parlour, and other niceties did nothing for the operational effectiveness of KAF and I for one don't buy the IO effect idea for one minute.  Such message, if it ever existed, was limited to the Canadian population.  Again, I am not sold on this message having ever been delivered, but hold that belief if you want to.

Even if that message was delivered back home, the effect in theater was different.  What the delivery of BS amenities to KAF achieved in theatre was the further entrenchment of an us vs them mentality that I personally found to be counterproductive.  It's tough to feel that you're on the same team as someone that gets to drink ice caps when you're sweating your bag off in an austere COP and wishing that you were someplace else.  I had the opportunity to see both sides of the coin on my tour there in 2008-09, and I believe the overall effect was negative.  The people in KAF had more than enough civilized amenities such as showers, laundry services, air-conditioned accomodations, and the like.  They didn't need any more.  I say this having been (for the most part) one of them.

It's been so since armies took to the field eons ago.

Amenities in the rear always surpass those in the front.

It's the nature of the beast.

It won't change, but you can still bitch about it, as they've also been doing for those same eons without change.