Thoughts on deployment/rotation length & HLTA

[1feral1]

EDITed for spelling

To get the Aussie equivilant of your HLTA, its ROCL (Relief out of Country Leave) you need a mininum of 6 months for about 20 days all up, including travelling time. One day less you get SFA.

We were 3 days shy of 7 months in country.

9 Months gets you another standard leave period. Few are authorised to stay for 9 months. We had a RIP'er come in to fill for a guy we lost to admin reasons. He stayed 2 wks shy of 9 mo, and got SFA, with the exception of his original leave mid tour. 9 months in Baggers, Holy shyte over!

We worked 7 days a week with the odd Friday 'low tempo'. Plus SNCO and above did 3 tours in the CP at night per week.

I had my leave about mid tour, and once back for a day or so, it was like I never left. At JTF 633 HQ at Victory, was greeted with a series of 122mm Katyushas. One nearly got the DFAC, killing one, injuring 14. Missed a group of Aussies by 20m! Welcome back to reality.

 

[Teflon]

I really don't see a 100% solution to this issue myself. (if there truely is a such thing in real life) I certainly see the advantage of longer tours, with pers on the ground and awares that is only gained by being there.  I also see the draw backs as well. Knowing full well how my wife would take it if I was to tell her I would be leaving again to Afghanistan for 12 months. I would be placed in the situation of choosing between her and my career and that is a decision that we (my wife and I have already settled) I wonder how tour lengths would effect our manning and retention levels over all. I can only speak for my own situation here but I would be able to swing not having HLTA (despite it being a real good selling point to the wife) and if I lived in a vacum away from the seprate family life, a longer tour wouldn't bother me all to much but I don't think I would be albe to maintain both (career and much longer tours) And yes my wife realizes the CF hired me and not her but that doesn't relieve me of responsibilies to her as well.

In the end I don't know of a way to make it better. Some people would be easy to adapt to much longer tours and for others it would place them squarely into a decision area where they are keeping their career or their family.

Rock and a hard place for some

 

[Gunner98]

I would like some unofficial 'official' clarification on this point.........seems strange to me.

Here you go Bruce - lots of recommends, should etc.

CANFORGEN 082/07 CDS 020/07 021440Z MAY 07
PERSTEMPO POLICY FOR CF INTERNATIONAL OPERATIONS

FG = Force Generators

Excerpt:

TOUR LENGTHS: THE NORMAL TOUR LENGTH FOR DEPLOYED UNITS SHALL BE SIX TO NINE MONTHS, WITH A MID-TOUR BREAK (HOME LEAVE TRAVEL ASSISTANCE - HLTA) WHENEVER POSSIBLE. FORCE GENERATORS (FG) ARE THE SOLE AUTHORITY FOR EXCEPTIONS TO THIS MAXIMUM FOR DEPLOYED UNITS. COMD CEFCOM MAY APPROVE DEPLOYMENTS OF UP TO 12 MONTHS DURATION FOR INDIVIDUALS, SUCH AS THOSE ASSIGNED TO A NATIONAL COMMAND ELEMENT (NCE) OR IN OTHER KEY POSITIONS, TAKING INTO CONSIDERATION THE OPERATIONAL REQUIREMENT AND THE ABILITY OF THESE INDIVIDUALS AND THEIR FAMILIES TO MANAGE EXTENDED DEPLOYMENTS

TOUR FREQUENCY: CF MEMBERS SHOULD NOT NORMALLY BE REQUIRED TO DEPLOY FOR AN OPERATIONAL TOUR OF SIX TO TWELVE MONTHS MORE THAN ONCE IN A THREE-YEAR CYCLE. HOWEVER, DEPENDING ON OPERATIONAL DEMANDS AND UNIT ROTATION CAPACITY, THAT GOAL MAY NOT ALWAYS BE ACHIEVABLE. IN SUCH CIRCUMSTANCES, THE MINIMUM EXEMPTION PERIOD OF ONE YEAR, DESCRIBED BELOW, SHALL APPLY SUBJECT ONLY TO OPERATIONAL IMPERATIVES

EXEMPTION PERIODS: REF E PROVIDES IN PART THAT MEMBERS SHALL NOT NORMALLY BE POSTED OUTSIDE CANADA OR TO AN ISOLATED POST TO WHICH THEIR FAMILIES ARE NOT AUTHORIZED TO PROCEED AT PUBLIC EXPENSE WITHIN ONE YEAR AFTER RETURNING TO CANADA FROM SUCH AN UNACCOMPANIED TOUR. HENCE:

FOR DEPLOYMENTS OF 180 CONSECUTIVE DAYS OR MORE, AN EXEMPTION PERIOD OF 365 DAYS SHALL APPLY OR ELSE A WAIVER SHALL BE REQUIRED. THE RESPONSIBLE ECS/GROUP PRINCIPAL/COMMANDER OF A COMMAND MAY APPROVE A WAIVER WHEN OPERATIONAL REQUIREMENTS DICTATE, OR THE MEMBER VOLUNTEERS FOR, AN ADDITIONAL DEPLOYMENT

FOR DEPLOYMENTS BETWEEN 60 AND 179 CONSECUTIVE DAYS, TWO CALENDAR DAYS EXEMPTION IS RECOMMENDED FOR EACH DAY DEPLOYED, NO MEMBER WAIVER REQUIRED

FOR DEPLOYMENTS LESS THAN 60 DAYS, AN EXEMPTION PERIOD IS AT THE DISCRETION OF THE ECS/COMMANDER OF A COMMAND

FOR DESIGNATED HIGH TEMPO UNITS/HIGH TEMPO POSITIONS AS DEFINED IN REF C, COMDS MAY APPLY AN EXEMPTION PERIOD BASED ON TWO CALENDAR DAYS FOR EACH DAY DEPLOYED FOR ANY ACCUMULATED PERIOD BETWEEN 60 AND 179 DAYS OF DEPLOYMENT WITHIN A SLIDING 365 DAY PERIOD AND

WHERE POSSIBLE, FG ARE ENCOURAGED TO FURTHER INCREASE THE PERIODS BETWEEN UNACCOMPANIED TOURS BASED ON SPECIFIC ENVIRONMENT AND INDIVIDUAL DEPLOYMENT PATTERNS

RESPITE PERIOD: FOLLOWING ALL CF INTERNATIONAL OPERATIONS OF SIX MONTHS OR MORE, THERE SHALL NORMALLY BE A 60-DAY RESPITE PERIOD DURING WHICH MEMBERS ARE NOT SUBJECT TO POSTINGS, ATTACHED POSTINGS OR TEMPORARY DUTY. COMMANDING OFFICERS MUST PERSONALLY APPROVE EACH CASE WHERE THE 60-DAY PERIOD CANNOT BE MET. FOR DEPLOYMENTS OF LESS THAN 180 DAYS, A RESPITE PERIOD IS AT THE DISCRETION OF THE ECS/GROUP PRINCIPAL/COMMANDER OF A COMMAND. IT IS CRITICALLY IMPORTANT THAT FOLLOWING A DEPLOYMENT, COMMANDING OFFICERS PROVIDE MEMBERS WITH MAXIMUM OPPORTUNITY TO SPEND TIME WITH FAMILY AND OTHER LOVED ONES

 

[jswift872]

my 2 cents, I agree that the best option I read here is 6 month tour no HLTA (as much as I loved it) or 9 month with HLTA. Nothing worst then always being undermanned in combat due to HLTA. Especially when your tour is Feb- Aug, the first HLTA falls around end of march (beginning of fighting season roughly) So for the duration of your tour your Platoon is undermanned, while engaged.

 

[1feral1]

In my opinion, soldiers do need the break, even on a 6 month tour.  6 months with out a break in a area of ops, full of high tempo war footings is stressful  on any human being, regardless on how tought they think they are.

Chances of exhaustion and burn-out are lowered, but with this comes disadvantages too, as mentioned above to some degree.

The leave gave me something to look forward to, and it worked. The break away from the BS and the culture was well needed.

Our ROCL was stepped, and did not cause any man management problems, even on missions. we always had full strength, adn no one was put into more danger than we already were.

Cheers,

Wes

 

[daftandbarmy]

An interesting article written in 1993 suggesting that if there's a 'real war' going on, soldiers don't mind being deployed for longer periods of time:

Peacekeeping Is Training For War

"In whatever form it comes, leadership is leadership, teamwork is teamwork and operational planing is operational planning. Morale can be affected by excessive or unnecessary separation but when a real job is there to be done, when real danger is a possibility or when a noble cause is being engaged in with the benefits clearly visible, servicemen are not only happy to do the job but will receive realistic training for their primary mission."

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/report/1993/HRJ.htm

 

[Greymatters]

In my opinion, soldiers do need the break, even on a 6 month tour.  6 months with out a break in a area of ops, full of high tempo war footings is stressful  on any human being, regardless on how tought they think they are.  

Especially when no sex, no fraternization and two-beer policies are in place...

 

[1feral1]

Especially when no sex, no fraternization and two-beer policies are in place...

The whole bloody camp was masturbatorium  ;D

Ha, I left enough DNA in that shytehole of a place to repopulate the world a thousand times :blotto:

 

[McG]

In my opinion, soldiers do need the break, even on a 6 month tour. 

A break could be a short R&R as opposed to HLTA.

Especially when no sex, no fraternization and two-beer policies are in place...

Try a no-beer policy.

 

[Celticgirl]

The whole bloody camp was masturbatorium  ;D

Ha, I left enough DNA in that shytehole of a place to repopulate the world a thousand times :blotto:

Well, there goes lunch.  :-X

 

[c_canuk]

I think that if they cut down the workup trg to 2 months (1 for instruction, 1 for putting new info from part 1 into practice) they could extend the tours to 10 months without affecting the amount of time a soldier is away from home.

If they did cut it down to 2 months, get serious about it. no 8-4 days with weekends off, go to 6 days a week, 16 hours a day then have a 1 week break at home after the work up trg before deploying.

Another option would be to have a full on workup trg, and an express workup for those that have already done it and just need a refresher/update course.

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

So you feel that you can do ALL training in CMTC in 2 months time (for the Infantry).  That would be sweet.

 

[Gunner98]

The whole bloody camp was masturbatorium  ;D
Ha, I left enough DNA in that shytehole of a place to repopulate the world a thousand times :blotto:

Wes - thanks for the vivid mental images - was that post sponsored by KY and Vaseline?

 

[Sig_Des]

I think that if they cut down the workup trg to 2 months (1 for instruction, 1 for putting new info from part 1 into practice) they could extend the tours to 10 months without affecting the amount of time a soldier is away from home.

If they did cut it down to 2 months, get serious about it. no 8-4 days with weekends off, go to 6 days a week, 16 hours a day then have a 1 week break at home after the work up trg before deploying.

Another option would be to have a full on workup trg, and an express workup for those that have already done it and just need a refresher/update course.

If this was Vietnam, and we were rotating just individuals, that might be possible...might be. But for a BG or TF HQ, that's not realistic.

For a Sigs perspective; Before you even start up your tour-specific pre-dep, there's all sorts PCF training that takes place. Between exercises, training on new equipment, adapting to lessons learned, learning to work with the units you're with, well, I don't think it's viable to cut down Pre-dep by that much. IMHO.

 

[1feral1]

Well, there goes lunch.  :-X

!

Wes

 

[1feral1]

Wes - thanks for the vivid mental images - was that post sponsored by KY and Vaseline?

Without straying off the thread topic too far, and being too graphic 

Best to go dry, more stealthy, ha! Considering 5 guys (4 RAEME, 1 Int) to a 7mx7m room (former Republican Guard shacks) with improvised plywood walls for cubicals.

Some did not care (well, one in particular - and no it was not me), and one had to put on his headphones and listen to a CD to drown out the background noise - eeeew!

Shameless, like to dogs phucking on a street corner.

Maybe the real enemy there was ourselves, ha!

Cheers,

Wes

 

[daftandbarmy]

I think that if they cut down the workup trg to 2 months (1 for instruction, 1 for putting new info from part 1 into practice) they could extend the tours to 10 months without affecting the amount of time a soldier is away from home.

If they did cut it down to 2 months, get serious about it. no 8-4 days with weekends off, go to 6 days a week, 16 hours a day then have a 1 week break at home after the work up trg before deploying.

That's pretty much the way the British Army did their workup training for Northern Ireland for over two decades. No hanging about. Short, sweet and to the point! Worked great.

 

[McG]

That's pretty much the way the British Army did their workup training for Northern Ireland for over two decades. No hanging about. Short, sweet and to the point! Worked great ...

... for North Ireland.  How many in those units were > 10% individual augmentees from the Territorial Army?  How many new theatre-only items of kit (including vehicles, comms systems, UAVs, etc) existed almost exclusively in N.I. & had to be learned just before deployment?  How many brand new units (PRT, OMLT) did not exist in a conventional ORBAT and had to be created just before deploying?

 

[helpup]

This thread has grown with some very interesting points.

It was mentioned earlier that HLTA was a result/holdover from UN Peacekeeping times.  Yet it also allows a selling feature for 9er domestic and the individual.  But when you look at the problems HLTA cause I think the case for removing it is more then a little strong.  Manpower being the big issue, even with units now tending to remove entire Sect or Pl instead of individuals here and there you still run into a hard fact.  Your Pl/Coy/Bn is missing a fair chunk of your manpower on leave for extended times.  Add those who are in for the normal ailments, casualties or run of the mill Pers issues that cant be dealt with outside the wire.  Normal Ops become stretched, we of course work through it as we always have.  Mount a major OP where having your Bayonets on the ground complete should be the overriding factor, ensuring your HLTA pers are rotated actually trumps that.  I have yet to see and hope that it has happened at some point HLTA canceled or postphoned due to OP requirement.  ( not talking about individual case here more along the lines of a HLTA Block )  That has consistently amazed me.  We have and will continue to perform despite this.  But should we have to in the first place?  

I know that in the normal running of things there are enough people who are not going to be available, FOB's CP's, Op's, cutoff's, need to be manned.  Pers Admin issues, illness or injury not relating to combat yet to this number we still are removing more to put them out of country for 3 weeks.  See your family, new parts of the world, alcohol in large amounts take a break and then head back to do it again.  

Troops look forward to HLTA and I do/have myself.  But as it gets close to your leave block I have seen a mental mind shift in many that means they are not 100% there for the task at hand.  Sure that will change in a flash for a TIC but it is the events that lead up to a TIC that concerns me.  ( before anyone pipes in about no one can be 100% there all the time, I will agree now.  but making the environment job focused as much as possible should be the priority)  When troops come back there is the lingering effects of leave that are there.  It does take time for some to switch gears, that time grows if there leave was not all roses.  (And we know that happens.)  

So for what is going on in the Sandbox right now remove HLTA extend the tour to 9-12 months.  There will have to be a rotation of some sort in there to get troops back into KAF on a regular basis for a break.  You could even look at going to a 72/96 hour leave block out of contry to unwind.  But that would be depending on the mission.  If there is a OP tempo that allows it, grant it.  If not then too bad no 96 until things slow down.  And right now there are enough slow downs that allow this at least once or twice for everyone through a tour length.  There is in place a formula for compensation for not getting a HLTA.  This would allow a great trip anywhere once you get back to home to make up for it.  9er domestic or kids may not like it one bit, heck the individual may not like it.  Yet those extra 3-6 months that your deployed increases the length of time your not going to be deployed next time.  (The length right now has troops going on their 4th tour in some cases.)  Your there now long enough that you can see larger projects to fruition, know the people in your AOR intimately, stay focused on the mission and above all when going Toe - Toe with Timmy have all your boots on the ground ( so to speak)

 

[c_canuk]

So you feel that you can do ALL training in CMTC in 2 months time (for the Infantry).  That would be sweet.

I can't speak at that level but my thoughts are as follows

8 hours a day, 5 days a week, 6 months = 960 hours
16 hours a day, 6 days a week 2 months = 768 hours

yes I believe 192 hours(or one month of workup trg as it is) can be cut from the workup trg program

I don't know about you but I'd rather spend 2 months of 16 hour days immersing myself with my crew under a bit of pressure rather than spend 6 months of regular work days with evenings and weekends to go to the clubs or watch TV in the shacks wishing I was home.