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Thoughts on deployment/rotation length & HLTA

I think longer deployment would be a good idea. I did almost 10 months on 1-06 and it wasnt bad. That being said I think that getting rid of HLTA would be a mistake. It is a great break in the tour, it is a HUGE selling feature when explaining to your old lady how long you are going to be away, and finally speaking from a reserve perspective, HLTA is one of the larger incentives to go on tour.
 
If they do go to longer Deployments, the they definitely have to keep the HLTA....You need that break, if only for a week, midway through...
 
I think a better compromise would be a 6-7 month tour with no HLTA.  This way you get dedicated uninterupted service, there is no screwing around with manpower and postions when members go on leave and I think the troops would agree more with that then 9 months and HLTA.
 
In Vietnam, the US units were deployed for years, with year long rotations in and out.

There were obvious issues related to a feeling of belonging, which the good ol' regimental system could fix.  Why not have a PPCLI, RCR and R22R Coy forming a battle group, then rotate people through on an annual basis? (You know, kind of like the Airborne Regiment used to do!). If the will to stand up a Bde came along, just ramp up the number of coys based on the three regiments.
 
the burn barrels start spewing like Blake's dark satanic mills,

THREAD JACK ALERT ***  THREAD JACK ALERT **** THREAD JACK ALERT


I don't mean to distract from the thread; however, I have to say that this probably one of my favourite lines ever uttered on R-me-dot-c-ay... an instant classic.

Now back to your original programming...
 
I think 6 mo without HLTA or 9 mo with HLTA are the two realistic options here.  Maybe year long rotations, but we might find that too much of the army starts feeling the left out of battle syndrome that was often a complaint during late Bosnia & early Afghanistan years. 

Lone Wolf Quagmire said:
So we factor in a year plus of work up then another 9 overseas.  Thanks but no thanks.
At the same time, I think the Army is burning itself out more on the constant inputs to support/conduct work-up than on the actual deployments.  If we could do 9 months tours then the training burden would be cut in half back home (allowing those in the support phase to do their own training while getting out of the stuck-in-garrison slump).

CSA 105 said:
In our 6 month construct, we waste an inordinate amount of time on setup, form-up, writing TTPs, writing "task force SOPs", getting to know each other, handover/takeovers, then once the last Roto X person has barely stepped on the plane, the burn barrels start spewing like Blake's dark satanic mills, binders are stripped and the company minus worth of NCE staff officers starts busiliy churning out "new" TF SOP books.  Funny, it seems that many of the "new" products look suspiciously like the old except they are in a different font and have a new crest on top? 
I'll give a +1 to this.  Even the first BG back in Kandahar used a lot of recycled stuff (from Kabul or the PRT that arrived 6 months ahead of us) with a new TF graphic attached.
 
I personally think 6-7 months is perfect!

Pre-deployment training plus the Tour itself equals 10 months away.
 
HFXCrow said:
Pre-deployment training plus the Tour itself equals 10 months away.
Only if you are lucky & the pre-deployment is shorter than what we are doing now.
 
"The TF headquarters rotates individually by position and positions remain in location for at least 9 months, preferably a year - ie a fresh Comd will have a COS who is at the midpoint of his/her tour, etc, etc.  If the G3 rotates, the other "3" positions will not be brand new so will lend some continuity to bring the new 3 up to speed and reduce the work and effort of handing over every position all at once.  This will prevent what has happened on many many rotations before, where no sooner has the last roto's TF HQ stepped on the plane, then all their work, SOPs, lessons learned, etc are scrapped, "because they were f&*$ up", sent to the burn barrels and a plethora of otherwise underemployed staff officers busily starts recreating them to make them fit the "1/2/5 CMBG or R22eR/PPCLI/RCR way".  This enables the "leading change" PF on a Theatre PER to be clicked into the "M" column, but other than that serves no useful purpose save satisfying the desires of those who need to put their stamp on things "just because".  I am sure there are others who have seen this duplication of effort and shook their heads.

The various BG headquarters serve a year (preferably) or 9 month rotation.  Within that year, the BG Comd can rotate individuals in by position as he and the vagaries of career progression, postings, career courses, performance and requirements dictate.  Specialists (ie MP det, CIMIC, HUMINT, etc) can be rotated by staggered halfs, much like CC UNDOF used to do on the Golan Heights, where Roto 54 (half the contingent) left, replaced by Roto 56, while Roto 55, who had rotated in at the 3 month point of Roto 54's six month tour, remained intact.

Sub units serve on a 9 month rotation, command team intact, rotated as BG HQ above if required.  Sub units should also stagger with other sub-units so that there is always at least one "experienced" one on hand who has a few months of corporate knowledge.

Sub-sub units rotate out on a 6 month rotation, staggered.  Therefore, OC "A" Coy will, at any given time, have 1 platoon nearing the end of a stint, 1 platoon at the beginning and 1 platoon at the midpoint.  This will keep corporate knowledge from being completely lost and will ensure that there is no completely "new" company in the hopper.  While not the best solution for maintaining sub-unit integrity, it's an 80 percent solution between individual rotation and complete unit rotation, which I find puts a whole unit in either the "new jittery stage" or "end-tour windup" stage, complicated by the leave plan sapping strength almost as soon as people start learning their jobs"


I hate saying I am "just a Cpl" here because most of the time that isn't the case but your wordage is a little confussing for me in this sense.  At which level is the rifle coy?  Sub Unit, Sub sub unit, higher in the overall package. (Basically what's it all mean Basil.)  I am not sniping but if we compare those that sit in KAF (and I am not saying you are) with those that go out and spend the majority of their time outside the wire I believe reflects differently on deployment timetables.  I could do a year standing on my head if I never left KAF. Also it becomes a dangerous game when we compare ourselves to our allies with only know some of the conditions in which they operate.
 
Take my HLTA away and make my tour longer that's an EXCELLENT idea ,Sir. Give me a break this has to be one of the best jokes on this site ever!!!!

TOW TRIPOD
 
daftandbarmy said:
In Vietnam, the US units were deployed for years, with year long rotations in and out.

There were obvious issues related to a feeling of belonging, which the good ol' regimental system could fix.  Why not have a PPCLI, RCR and R22R Coy forming a battle group, then rotate people through on an annual basis? (You know, kind of like the Airborne Regiment used to do!). If the will to stand up a Bde came along, just ramp up the number of coys based on the three regiments.

Vietnam used individual rotation rather than unit rotation
 
Well I used to be able to say that, but now my rank works out somewhere between Capt and Maj -- and with the amount of money I make and the love I have for the job -- I dont call it work  ;D

BigRed and I rotate 8 weeks on and 4 weeks off (theorrectically, since several times I've done 5 month stretches, and I think John was at 8 one time) -- I've been on this since 2005 -- and he's been here a lot longer.  Granted we are both probably somewhat psychotic  ;).
I lived a year on the equivalent of a section sized house, and John was for two years.  Mind you we have cushier living - like most SF team houses...

Mission - Team - Self

Or better described by the USMC - God, Mother, Country, Corps (I don't see Self anywhere in that, GAP can probably articulate it better than I)

Having seen US Army troops on tour #4 or 5 since 9/11 -- I dont see where the argument of a guy who has one or two 6 month tours comes from.

-Kev

Edit: -- I view this current conflict to be the pinnacle issue of our generation.  Looking back to my grandfathers service in WWII -- I don't 'think' he has MWR internet or SAT Phone to call home, nor a definite end tour date. 






 
interesting thread,

I'm fairly new to this army, and being a reservist, I'm considering being volunteer to go on tour, even if Missy is against it. As a reservist, I can go on a tour, come back and ask to leave again on tour the day I come back. It seems that the regs cannot do this. I have not lived a tour, and, I hope I will have the chance to live at least one in my career.

Whether it is a 6, 9 or year, I would go. To my opinion the HLTA is a good thing, but with today's technology, its different from when my dad went on tour. We did not talk to him everyday, we did not see him every day, we did not have news as often as today. One of my coworker talks to her hubby everyday, she see him on MSN 3-4 times a week. Which is to my humble opinion something good for the morale. She was saying that is was the fist tour she lived that was that easy to have some news.

Yes a "break" is important specially if you are in a hot combat zone. and, with 3 group taking the place (22, PPCLI and the RCR) it is not every one who can stand to live deployment over deployment. but, you have chosen to get on the force, lived with what it implies.
 
My 2 cents worth....

Up in Kabul (yes some people forget we still have some troops there) the sigs det has 2 people from one unit, and one from "elsewhere". The person from "elsewhere" rotates in with the regular rotation, and the two from the other unit rotates in halfway through the rotation. I found this arrangement to be idea as there in essence is a three month handover, vice the 3-10 day handover most folks get. This allows the new guys to reveal any skeletons in the closet, settings that the outgoing person may say "oh I forgot to mention..." and so on.
As for increasing the length of the tour, well, I'm there to do a job and I accept any conditons attached. From a personal standpoint, I would keep the HLTA as I could see the good change it brought to some people and yes, it is a selling feature to our spouses, however from an operational point of view I saw how it played havoc with scheduling and operational effectiveness.

 
mysteriousmind said:
As a reservist, I can go on a tour, come back and ask to leave again on tour the day I come back. It seems that the regs cannot do this.

I would like some unofficial 'official' clarification on this point.........seems strange to me.
 
I think what he is saying is that a reservist can apply to on any tour provided that there are CFTPO posn's tasked down to their unit. i.e. I went on TF 1-06 with a 1 PPCLI battle group. When I got home I applied and got accepted to go on TF 1-08 with a 2 PPCLI battle group. When I get home from 1-08 I can apply for a posn on TF 3-09, should there be positions within the 3-09 ORBAT tasked down to my unit. Soldiers that went on 1-06 from 1VP are not deploying on TF 1-08 in any kind of numbers. I realize that there are soldiers from 1VP filling other roles, and back filling positions within TF 1-08, but aside from B Coy 1VP no other formed element of 1VP is deploying. A reservist is not tied to any formed element of unit and thus can "jump" from tour to tour. The standard, must be in Canada for 1 year post deployment still applies to reservists as it does to the regular force. Hopefully this helps.
 
Lone Wolf Quagmire said:
"The TF headquarters rotates individually by position and positions remain in location for at least 9 months, preferably a year - ie a fresh Comd will have a COS who is at the midpoint of his/her tour, etc, etc.  If the G3 rotates, the other "3" positions will not be brand new so will lend some continuity to bring the new 3 up to speed and reduce the work and effort of handing over every position all at once.  This will prevent what has happened on many many rotations before, where no sooner has the last roto's TF HQ stepped on the plane, then all their work, SOPs, lessons learned, etc are scrapped, "because they were f&*$ up", sent to the burn barrels and a plethora of otherwise underemployed staff officers busily starts recreating them to make them fit the "1/2/5 CMBG or R22eR/PPCLI/RCR way".  This enables the "leading change" PF on a Theatre PER to be clicked into the "M" column, but other than that serves no useful purpose save satisfying the desires of those who need to put their stamp on things "just because".  I am sure there are others who have seen this duplication of effort and shook their heads. 

Nice summary.  Sadly it all too true...

Overall, extended tours are a great idea and make a lot of sense.  It seems by the time you hit 6 months you are really hitting your stride, but the beaurocrats in the CF werent very accomodating in the past at authorizing extensions... 
 
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