Thoughts on deployment/rotation length & HLTA

[daftandbarmy]

Instead of spreading out the leave over as long a time as possible and accepting the loss of personnel, Australia is sending over another complete small combat element for only a few months, which will replace each similiar sized unit in country to allow them to go on their leave. This means there will be no loss of combat power during the leave period.

I assume that 'small combat element' means rifle company-sized formations? A brilliant idea which, to be successful, no doubt relies on some high quality staff work and senior leadership.

 

[vonGarvin]

In summary what is decided for both HLTA and decompression will be a consistent and uniform benefit and allowance for all (with a few very minor exceptions.)  Squeezing a few extra weeks out of troops without a break will lead to more negative results. 

I agree that breaks are needed.  Right now, people are given a block of time off, and I'm sorry if I sound inconsiderate, but everyone has challenges at home, and I also agree that HLTA was a blessed event for me as well.  Having said that, a 2-3 week block in the middle is not what is needed.  That time off needs to be spread out.  One day a week, maybe one day every two weeks, something.  And nobody can say that it can't be done.  Hell, we take people out of the mix for weeks at a time now, so why not several days, spread over the tour? 

 

[vonGarvin]

The only thing I would add is to get rid of hardship for KAF.  There is nothing hard,scary,threatening at KAF.  Getting haircuts,massages,drinking green bean while telling stories about when you heard a rocket alarm does not validate the hardship.  Give the combat troops extra money and more leave at the end of tour.  Allow the per's deployed to KAF to keep the usual HLTA.  And before someone says x trade leaves the gate from time to time,there will be no perfect method.  They scrapped our combat badges,we get paid the same....talk about combat stress lol. ;D

OK, let's make this even more fair (even though I'm enraged by your assertion that there is "...nothing...threatening at KAF."  It's all a matter of degrees).  Suppose dude is in a FOB.  Does he get paid less than the dude who, also at said FOB, but goes out more often (eg: rifleman vs. cook?)  And what of the OMLT dudes, with no FOBs for them?  Do they get more?  And who is going to track said "hardship?"  And what of FOBs where there is less contact than other FOBs? 

So, I ask you, when you see a WW2 vet, who perhaps was a "REMF", but served in France, Belgium and Holland, but never fired or heard a shot in anger, do you sneer at his medals?  Like it or not, we're all in the (relative) same boat, though some are on lower decks than others.  If you want more money for more danger, go sign up for the next installment of Jackass, otherwise, accept Her Majesty's shilling and be on your way.

 

[PhilB]

I agree and disagree with you Mortarman. My first tour we were based mostly out of KAF, while on my second we were out of a combat outpost. I don't think that the two "boats" are even relatively close. Not even in the same ocean. The only thing that links them is that they are in the same country. That being said, you are right about the difficulties of altering levels of hardship and risk. Not that there isnt a large difference between KAF, and everything else, but there is also differences between different outside the wire positions. I think that the best solution would be to allow soldiers to retain the "permanent field pay" allowance that they receive in Canada (I am not sure what the allowance is actually called, but you know what I mean  >  ). This could be easily determined. If you spend "x" number of days outside the wire (I mean outside the wire, not inside a FOB, im sorry MSG/Sper are not that much more dangerous/hard than KAF) then you are entitled to the allowance for the month. If you dont spend enough days out, the you dont get it. This would be a large bonus to recognize troops that are living a much harder life on tour. My opinion of a harder life is both in terms of danger and hardship. If you are living in KAF/FOB eating fresh food, in air conditioning with a gym and other amenities most of the time then just because you are in "x" fob doesnt mean you are living the hard life. OMLT and BG troops living in COP's and SP's or out on ops eating rations, sleeping on the ground etc. is my idea of hardship. Just my two cents.

 

[Greymatters]

Decompression before returning is one of the most effective tools, for both the member and their families, post tour. When a member goes straight home for a HLTA in the middle of the tour it undermines the whole concept of decompression. So why do we still keep sending soldier straight back? Either also have an additional decompression period prior to going home on HLTA(in theatre or third location) or get rid of the HLTA option when in high threat areas. 

That's a good point... 

 

[George Wallace]

We can discuss this until we are "blue in the face", but the sad fact is, there will always be someone who is not happy with how much money (s)he makes or how many medals or badges that (s)he has earned/collected.  They will never feel that anyone else is as equal to them in skill sets, hardships, danger, etc.  It is those sad few, that will constantly complain or bring up this topic.  Reason or facts will not deter them from their 'complaints'.

 

[Gunner98]

Having said that, a 2-3 week block in the middle is not what is needed.  That time off needs to be spread out.  One day a week, maybe one day every two weeks, something. 

I will ask again - not needed by whom - the individual or the op/mission/task.  Mission creep will eliminate these days off the same way they do back home when individual leave plans are requested rather than scheduling unit block leave. 

As for hardship and risk allowances, IMHO if you are there for the money you are there for the wrong reason.  If you think your value is higher than the next guy I think you are missing the bigger picture - "it is One Army, One Team, One Vision", not a one-man army or an army of a few.

 

[Raven22]

I assume that 'small combat element' means rifle company-sized formations? A brilliant idea which, to be successful, no doubt relies on some high quality staff work and senior leadership.

Think smaller. Australia only has one rifle company in Afghanistan. As I said, the main idea is to get a few more combat personnel into country that don't count under Kevin Rudd's personnel cap. If they go over there a couple of months early and return a couple of months late, who's to know?

 

[vonGarvin]

As for hardship and risk allowances, IMHO if you are there for the money you are there for the wrong reason.  If you think your value is higher than the next guy I think you are missing the bigger picture - "it is One Army, One Team, One Vision", not a one-man army or an army of a few.

I agree 100%!

 

[X-mo-1979]

I agree that breaks are needed.  Right now, people are given a block of time off, and I'm sorry if I sound inconsiderate, but everyone has challenges at home, and I also agree that HLTA was a blessed event for me as well.  Having said that, a 2-3 week block in the middle is not what is needed.  That time off needs to be spread out.  One day a week, maybe one day every two weeks, something.  And nobody can say that it can't be done.  Hell, we take people out of the mix for weeks at a time now, so why not several days, spread over the tour? 

The problem is we wouldnt ever get it.And you know it.Things would constantly come up and getting a two day pass to KAF would also slip by the wayside.At least with HLTA it is driven by policy.As well trying to get out of COP's and FOBS,BP, isnt always easy.It's a mess trying to get back from your flight as it is sometimes.Can you imagine trying to swing guys in on a fair basis continually for the tour.It would be plagued by problems.As for time off at the FOB ,it wouldnt be time off.When your having your "day off" it would quickly become a training day or a day to get PDR's done etc etc.

As for the discussion of what is dangerous and not,you are right MSG PBSG are about the same as KAF.

 

[vonGarvin]

I'll start by saying that I'm not going to compare jobs for "danger level" or "dangerness" (if that's even a word).
As for giving us HLTA because the chain of command wouldn't give us time off is bunk.  It's very simple to regulate "time off".  Many "KAF-ites" got time off over christmas (as I understand it).  As for bringing people in from the field, it's too easy: platoon or troop at a time.  Heck, this BG has already done that (concurrent to other tasks that bring them back here).  Besides, welfare of the troops is a command issue, and if the troops are burning out due to no time off, then commanders have to start getting axed.

 

[daftandbarmy]

As for bringing people in from the field, it's too easy: platoon or troop at a time.  Heck, this BG has already done that (concurrent to other tasks that bring them back here).  Besides, welfare of the troops is a command issue, and if the troops are burning out due to no time off, then commanders have to start getting axed.

Exactly. In theatre 'Time Off' from dodging IEDs is easy to arrange and, in other conflicts, was frequently implemented as part of a regular Bde level policy where units were rotated out of the line for R&R/ 48 hour pass, or at least a shower, a steak and a beer or two. But therein lies the challenge of the 6 month tour: high expectations for 'success', plus a relatively small number of troops to cover a large number of tasks, plus a limited time for battlefield commanders to get results and win that all important high quality PER (or book deal), mean that unfortunately HTLA will frequently be the only time off a rilfe company guy (or gal) sees during a tour.

 

[KevinB]

I still think a 1 year tour - Bde sized. - for a one year on, two years off system.
A FuLL Bde, Hq - 3 Inf Bn's, 1xEng Reg't, Armd Reg't, Arty Reg't, TacHel Sqn, the other odds and sods.

Rotate Pl's or even Coy's off the line back to KAF regularily for a week every month or so.  Plus a 72hr R&R every two months.

 

[NL_engineer]

I'll start by saying that I'm not going to compare jobs for "danger level" or "dangerness" (if that's even a word).
As for giving us HLTA because the chain of command wouldn't give us time off is bunk.  It's very simple to regulate "time off".  Many "KAF-ites" got time off over christmas (as I understand it).  As for bringing people in from the field, it's too easy: platoon or troop at a time.  Heck, this BG has already done that (concurrent to other tasks that bring them back here).  Besides, welfare of the troops is a command issue, and if the troops are burning out due to no time off, then commanders have to start getting axed.

Doesn't that go back to 'the people at the top are to far removed from the the people at the bottom' syndrome?

 

[George Wallace]

I still think a 1 year tour - Bde sized. - for a one year on, two years off system.
A FuLL Bde, Hq - 3 Inf Bn's, 1xEng Reg't, Armd Reg't, Arty Reg't, TacHel Sqn, the other odds and sods.

Rotate Pl's or even Coy's off the line back to KAF regularily for a week every month or so.  Plus a 72hr R&R every two months.

That would make sense, and we know what that means; it won't happen.  The biggest factor is that the Canadian Public would not approve the increase in Defence Spending to facilitate such a planned deployment of Bdes.

 

[daftandbarmy]

That would make sense, and we know what that means; it won't happen.  The biggest factor is that the Canadian Public would not approve the increase in Defence Spending to facilitate such a planned deployment of Bdes.

I'm pretty sure that all we'd need is an Army Commander with cojones. He just needs to say 'make it so' and his staff can figure it out.

 

[Infanteer]

I'm pretty sure that all we'd need is an Army Commander with cojones. He just needs to say 'make it so' and his staff can figure it out.

Of course, this needs to be counterbalanced by a smart Army Commander who goes through a proper estimate.

We've had a leader with cojones who said make it happen and then let it ride and we ended up with 4 .dot COMS (someone please explain CANOSCOM to me?) and a plethora of new Major to Major General positions to replace one small organization.

 

[Command-Sense-Act 105]

"it is One Army, One Team, One Vision"

But within that Army, people do different jobs.  Like the rucksack, tac vest, boots, Kevlar vs CVC helmets, all the other dogshit out there, let's stop trying to pretend that we are all equal and that there is a 'one size fits all' solution. 

There is not.  Some people do different things than others.  You will never make everyone happy but as of now, if combat commanders are unhappy because in a combat arms sub-unit, the long deployment timeline plus HLTA means a sub unit has 100% of its people on the ground for only 4 days out of a whole tour, that needs to be addressed.

As far as I'm concerned, HLTA needs to be scrapped.  It builds the culture of entitlement and saps focus and combat power.  I'm sure our comrades lying peacefully in Dieppe and Normandy are rolling in their graves at the softness, weakness and bureacracy of the present institutional army. 

In-county R&Rs (hell, contract an R&R centre in Kabul or elsewhere in the region) are a better way to go, IF (that's a big IF) we can't build and maintain the institutional discipline to get people out of the line at least for 48hrs at a time using what essentially is a rear echelon environment right at Kandahar Airfield.  Before the KAF people get upset at that statement, please read this series of articles, then make your arguments.

And for those "in the line" you can't tell me that it's "high intensity conflict, all on, all the time" 100% of the time when you are in your FOB, so you can "never get any time off".  I just don't buy it.

Ref an Army Commander with cojones, we all wish it were just that simple.

End statement - get rid of HLTA, stop straddling "peace" and "war" environments and focus on the fight with a "run what you brung" mentality.

 

[Infanteer]

  Before the KAF people get upset at that statement, please read this series of articles, then make your arguments.

Checkmate.

Some highlights:

We had to do all sorts of things from a memory game, spelling game, paper airplane challenge, trivia questions about the base, scavenger hunt, football toss, water balloon toss all the while running all over the camp. We finished up with a tug of war. We didn't win but we were so close.

and

Monday afternoon the power went out in some tents, mine being one of them. So that means no lights and more concerning, no air conditioning. As I write this they aren't quite sure when it will be back up but I sure hope it is soon. There is a small segment of time in the wee hours of the morning where is cools down enough to want a blanket but other than that it is pretty hot inside. Showers have pressure but the water doesn't warm up, which isn't a bad thing. In fact the cold water is very welcome and I won't complain about that!

and

One thing I will really miss when I leave here is walking on really big rocks/gravel.  Of course I am being sarcastic. It is so annoying walking Ron that stuff. It couldn't be little pea sized gravel or anything easy to keep our footing on. Of course not.  Instead they find the biggest gravel in the world and dump it here. Like the pieces are as big as my hand sometimes. I'm sure there was a good reason for it, like it was the least expensive or something, or maybe it's the plight of the Taliban to try and sprain or break as many soldier's ankle's as possible.  Who knows?

 

[X-mo-1979]

I agree 99%.However if we are talking a bit of off army downtime no we don't get any.If we are not out we are plugging holes in camp security.By far it is not a high intensity (most times) however when your camp is 1000mx1000m getting away doesn't happen.Believe it or not our FOB's get attacked quite often.COP's did even more.
Plus being so short manned by HLTA we are always filling spots somewhere.

Even an R&R center in KAF would be nice.I rather enjoyed my vacation there (injured).The alarms were not that scary(although some seems to tell their wifes how scary it was on the phone while I was there).Green bean was nice,and I seen a new device to carry your rifle on your bike which I thought was pretty cool (as carrying it was awkward according to the article.)

As for the institutional discipline to get guys out I believe it wouldn't happen.As then we would be leaving people "undermanned" and it plain wouldn't happen in the BG.The best solution I have heard or seen yet is to give guys the leave upon return.And somehow I cant see that happening ,it would be a lot like the pre deployment leave we got.

However with our own choppers maybe 48hrs a month back to KAF could be a possiablity now.