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The utility of three military colleges, funded undergrad degrees; Officer trg & the need for a degre

  • Thread starter Thread starter GAP
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Re Michael O'Leary's post, it parallels my experience as a 20-year-old gunner promoted to officer cadet and sent on Army Officer Candidate Training in September 1960. One should never forget that all officers cadets regardless of entry programme had to meet the same entry standards in terms of intelligence tests and selection boards. [The average age of our course was six months older than our ROTP compatriots, but that is another story.] We were second class citizens as was evident when we were not allowed to participate in the summer officer cadet sports day and our OCP class was the only one without formal recognition of the top student with a trophy or award. Ok, sore point, I led our course and did get an interview with the commandant as a reward.

When we reached our regiments, we found there was little difference in standard, except that we were second lieutenants and the ROTP were lieutenants except for a couple who did not have a degree. Honking big difference in pay by the way. In terms of performance, little if any difference except for the approximate 50% of the ROTP who made no bones about taking the program for the "free" degree and had no intention of serving a day beyond their three year commitment as a commissioned officer. They were largely idle wastes of rations. There was enough dissatisfaction with the inequalities and general favouritism towards ROTP at the time, that those who intended to make a career of it agreed that the system was broken. By the seventies the course standards, etc were the same and in fact the OCTP and ROTP candidates were integrated.

So what? Junior officers are pretty much a work in progress and formal education is only one factor in determining how well these young men and women will do when the stress fairy waves her magic wand all of a sudden. As a second lieutenant I was faced by two sudden challenges. The first was a few months after commissioning when I had to resolve a domestic situation involving alcohol, adultery and a loaded firearm in the hands of the aggrieved husband. The second involved the premature detonation of a live round 15 metres out of the muzzle of a field gun that wounded six of my soldiers. I wasn't perfect, but both turned out well.

Back then the majority consensus of officers through both streams was that the system would work better if selection to pursue a degree came after a few years service.
 
I've been following this with interest, but was wondering how you'd sell such a program to:

a) the candidate, and (I'd say more importantly)
b) the candidate's parents.

I agree that not every officer has to have a degree, and that a degree should come a few years later when said officer is more mature.  However,  for good or bad, going to university at age 18 is now considered "normal", and I'd suspect that for many looking that route (and their parents), waiting until 27-30 to get their B.A. would be seen as a waste of their years before jobs/parenthood get in the mix. 

The other hiccup I could see is how would these officers get their degrees?  Would they get pulled out for 4 years to go to school as a posting?  Do they have to do it all DL or part-time?  As an OCdt without experience, pulling someone out for 4 years wouldn't affect the unit much, but pulling out experienced Capts might.

Again, I agree with the general idea and having RMC like Sandhurst vice a separate degree-granting school (Queens is next door...), but I'm not sure how it could be done cleanly.

:2c:

Also, maybe a split (or a merge with another thread - I thought we had something similar to this before)?
 
I've been watching this topic with interest.

I think too if we moved away from degrees for subalterns, you might find the debacle that is UTPNCM disappear.

Those from the ranks that want to commission would have to WANT to commission entirely separately from wanting to obtain a degree on the Crown's dime. If they are willing to complete a form of OCS and serve 3-5 years as a Subaltern, perhaps they qualify for ROTP.

And hell; maybe those who want to commission, but run from having to do formal academic training to do it might be swayed otherwise.

Just my two cents.
 
rmc_wannabe said:
I've been watching this topic with interest.

I think too if we moved away from degrees for subalterns, you might find the debacle that is UTPNCM disappear.

Debacle? I've seen a large number of very successful officers produced through UTPNCM -- up to and including senior officers who have gone to CFC in Toronto (I've never seen a CFR, by comparison, get to CFC). It had a reputation for being the most competitive commissioning plan and therefore producing officers of the highest overall quality.

Did they do something to break the program recently?
 
Quote from: rmc_wannabe on Today at 19:46:32
    I've been watching this topic with interest.

    I think too if we moved away from degrees for subalterns, you might find the debacle that is UTPNCM disappear.

I don't think you know what you are talking about.....UTPNCM candidates are already a proven commodity in respect to the CF, rather than some dude wandering in off the street on a maybe....
 
Perhaps I should have used better language?  :whiteflag:

Make UTPNCM more streamlined?

Want to serve as an junior officer without getting a degree? Officer Candidate TC.

Want to serve as an officer and get a degree? UTPNCM

Shown potential as an NCM and should be an officer? CFR.

I'll go back to my corner  :)
 
Kirkhill said:
Why not: "Lieutenants may degree, Captains should degree, Majors must degree".
That is CEOTP.  No promotion to major without completing that degree.  Captains get extra points at the promotion board for having that degree.  If a captain without a degree gets merited high enough for promotion, that captain becomes a priority for an ATL posting to complete the dergree.

 
MCG said:
That is CEOTP.  No promotion to major without completing that degree.  Captains get extra points at the promotion board for having that degree.  If a captain without a degree gets merited high enough for promotion, that captain becomes a priority for an ATL posting to complete the dergree.

If that's the case, how is it managed just now?  I know universities run co-op programmes - and learning can be discontinuous.
 
Onus is on the officer to continue making progress toward earning a degree.
The BMAS from RMC is encouraged for officers in this program, but they can enroll in part-time and distance studies from an accredited Canadian university.
 
Dimsum said:
I've been following this with interest, but was wondering how you'd sell such a program to:

a) the candidate, and (I'd say more importantly)
b) the candidate's parents.

I agree that not every officer has to have a degree, and that a degree should come a few years later when said officer is more mature.  However,  for good or bad, going to university at age 18 is now considered "normal", and I'd suspect that for many looking that route (and their parents), waiting until 27-30 to get their B.A. would be seen as a waste of their years before jobs/parenthood get in the mix. 

The other hiccup I could see is how would these officers get their degrees?  Would they get pulled out for 4 years to go to school as a posting?  Do they have to do it all DL or part-time?  As an OCdt without experience, pulling someone out for 4 years wouldn't affect the unit much, but pulling out experienced Capts might.

Again, I agree with the general idea and having RMC like Sandhurst vice a separate degree-granting school (Queens is next door...), but I'm not sure how it could be done cleanly.

:2c:

Also, maybe a split (or a merge with another thread - I thought we had something similar to this before)?


Let's deal only with the officers who stay on in the CF after their initial "seven year hitch" which includes the 18th month course ar RMC or CMR.

    (By the way, that 18 month course (about 17 months (75 weeks) of actual training) includes what amounts to a first year university programme that will be recognized by Canadian civilian universities: mathematics; English and French;
    (military) history; psychology (military leadership); strategy (geography and economics) and a general (military) science course ~ introduction to electronics, weapons and mobility.)

Both RMC and CMR would offer, in English and French, respectively:

    1. A general or "pass" BA in Military Arts and Leadership ~ a two year (six semester) non-honours course;

    2. A general or "pass" BA in Defence Management and Military Administration ~ also a two year non-honours course;

        (Courses 1 and 2 might be well suited for many general service officers in a wide range of occupations.)

    3. An Honours BA in Military Arts and Leadership with concentrations in military history or strategic studies;

    4. An honours BA in Military Logistics and Management;

    5. An BEng in Logistical Engineering; and

    6. A range of specialized BEng programmes in e.g. Naval Combat Systems Engineering, Military (Combat) Engineering, and Aeronautical Engineering.

    (All of programmes 3 through 6 could lead suitable candidates to graduate degree programmes at RMC or any civilian university; all would be full, four year degree programmes: the first year done in the initial 18 month course and
    three full academic years done at CMR or RMC as full time students, with both being full blown tri-mester universities. Programme 6, BEng might only be available at RMC. RMC might have a small, excellent graduate school
    offering degrees in a very few, very specialized programmes that are not duplicated in any other North American university.)

Part of the release benefit package for officers who are not selected (or did not apply) to serve after their initial "seven year hitch" would include support (administrative and financial) to undertake studies in Canadian colleges or universities.
 
As long as we don't change ROTP output (already too high) this could be feasible - shift production from RMC to CMR.  Then we can dispose of some older infrastructure in Kingston.

Instead, of course, we'll create another huge barnacle on the hull of HMCS Canadian Forces.
 
Just returned from a meeting in the RMC Senior Staff Mess to help reps from a certain English-speaking regular infantry regiment formulate their plan for a volume of their military history covering 1950 to 2001. Access to the mess was made slightly difficult by construction on the RMC grounds. Two of the others attendees noted there also was construction in Fort Frontenanc and they wondered if the CAF's budget troubles were overstated. I suggested that the forces just might be spending money on the wrong things.
 
Much of the current construction traces its roots to announcements in July by the fderal government, totally unrelated to the ongoing election, of millions of dollars for infra work over the next 2 years.
 
Construction funding announcements in July and work being started now would make it the fastest PWGSC contracting on infrastructure ever. I'm willing to bet these projects were funded years ago, and either simply re-released as press announcements or are unrelated to the PRes armoury restorations.
 
PuckChaser said:
Construction funding announcements in July and work being started now would make it the fastest PWGSC contracting on infrastructure ever. I'm willing to bet these projects were funded years ago, and either simply re-released as press announcements or are unrelated to the PRes armoury restorations.
Yep.  So as to not take this thread too far off topic, see here:  The CF as a re-election prop (a split thread)
 
Throw it out there that for those of us outside of combat arms, having a degree in a relevant field means you are almost immediately employable in some form while waiting for the various phase training, which can have wait times of 6 months or more between them.  Coming in right out of high school would make you almost useless, and as it is for naval technical officers it can take four years or longer to get through the current training scheme with a degree, so doing it later on in life would mean you'd just be doing it at a much higher pay grade.

You still need to have to demonstrate leadership to really strive and succeed, but there is still lots of roles in specialists trades for those that are very good at the technical aspects of their jobs but not so much at dealing with people.
 
Navy_Pete said:
You still need to have to demonstrate leadership to really strive and succeed, but there is still lots of roles in specialists trades for those that are very good at the technical aspects of their jobs but not so much at dealing with people.

Officers lead.  If they're not good with people, they should not be serving as officers.

Too many technical occupations have built Ottawa-centric communities of practice.  Hint: If over half your trade is in NDHQ, it should probably be civilianized.
 
Considering many successful people manage to work their way through an undergrad education without CAF subsidization, I'm curious why we need ROTP at all. Wouldn't it be better to have new officers that have demonstrated sufficient dedication and planning to fund their own degree? That way we'd get them at 21/22 (a little more mature than 17-18) and they could immediately be put through their training. It might make for more well rounded candidates as well...

Once they have put some time in (and showed they can perform) I am not against subsidizing Master's level programs (MPA,MBA, MEng etc) at RMC or a civilian school (would be my preference)

So why so much focus on ROTP vs DEO? Are we worried we won't be able to recruit anyone? Or is ROTP/RMC just sacred ground for the CAF? I think I know the true answer, but I am curious to hear what others think.
 
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