• Thanks for stopping by. Logging in to a registered account will remove all generic ads. Please reach out with any questions or concerns.

"The stuff the army issues is useless" and "no non-issue kit over seas!"

spartan031 said:
Could you imagine having to use the webbing that they give you at BMQ.

Half of it fell off with one pass of the obstacle course.

Like Just A Sig Op said there are ways of fixing that problem.  Also, troops did hump the mountains in Afghanistan with the '82 pat webbing in 2001/2002, etc.
http://media.militaryphotos.net/photos/Allied_Canada
http://media.militaryphotos.net/photos/Op_Apollo_C-Coy_3PPCLI
http://media.militaryphotos.net/photos/TF_Rakkasan_in_Kandahar
 
loyaleddie87 said:
Reading an article in the paper today has brought me to this thread. The article stated that the combat capable troops overseas( ie infantry) are being accomodated in the worst living quarters. tents that house hundreds of troops with gravel and dirt ground and little to no running water, and are places farthest away from the internet cafes and other recreational facilities. meanwhile service and support troops who rarely leave the base are staying in places with concrete floors with running water and ample electricity and are alot closer to recreational facilities. the article also mentioned how infantry soldiers deploying overseas are investing upwards of a thousand dollers in there own kit, stating the issued kit doesnt cut it overseas. mainly referring to the issue desert boots being to rigid and not comfortable enuf for long foot patrols extended over days, and the tac vest being insufficient due to its limited capacity to hold magazines and other equipment.

this is not a thread to bash anyone, just curious as to ur opinions as of why the infantry types are getting the worst accomodations when GENERALLY speaking they have the most dangerous and stressful job.

Well, what about the argument about the US experience in Vietnam, where troops engaged in combat operations commuted to work by APC or helicopter, did a tough job for a week at a time or so, then retreated into oases of air conditioned clubs, beer, steak dinners, electronics for cheap on demand, and eventually the rise of a drug culture, polarization along racial lines, and little in the way of shared hardships?  While GIs in Vietnam lived with all the amenities of home, their enemies were squatting in the jungle, living in holes in the ground, subsisting on fish heads and rice.

A friend of mine, now an officer and formerly a long term NCM in a GS battalion, was flabbergasted (he was originally an infantryman) at the bitching one or two of his GD comrades did at how poor conditions were when they had a "dry exercise" - in modular tents on a concrete runway(!)

I can't think of anyone more suited to hardship than an infantryman; are there really complaints about not being able to sleep in feather beds? Some of the infantrymen I know would take it as a point of pride to be living in tough conditions, and if the clerks had it cushier, well, most of them wouldn't want to be a clerk for love nor money.

You know the old joke

"Nothing is too good for our fighting troops, so nothing is just what they'll get!"

I find it hard to believe there is a conspiracy about accommodations, and didn't Franko address that point in his post?

 
I'm say this and if I come across as a pussy or whiner the so be it.  Just because it has been like that doesn't mean it has to be now or in the future.  That being said if the reasoning behind building new accomidations is being held up by UXO's etc then so be it.  I'd rather use a cot anyway.
 
Gee, where were those places?? I spent 26 months incountry and the only two times I slept in anything but a cot or on the ground was when I was in the hospital for 2 days and the nights were spent in a Vietnamese Cathouse...(well, I wasn't THAT hurt).

There probably were places like that, but none that I ran into in I Corps
 
GAP said:
Gee, where were those places?? I spent 26 months incountry and the only two times I slept in anything but a cot or on the ground was when I was in the hospital for 2 days and the nights were spent in a Vietnamese Cathouse...(well, I wasn't THAT hurt).

There probably were places like that, but none that I ran into in I Corps

I wasn't talking about beds, sorry for the confusion.  I'd submit that a cot in a tent, with an air conditioned club, large quantities of beer and steaks, etc. constitute fairly good living compared to the Vietnamese soldiers on the other side. Not to disparage the combat experiences - as I indicated in my post, it was a rough go in the field - of those who were there.

Incidentally, which battalion/regt/div did you serve with, out of curiousity?
 
Globeguy, need to keep in mind that not all purchases of non-issue gear is because a soldier doesnt like the issue gear. In the US Army for example the issue boots get very high marks, but some people have trouble breaking them in. A solution for some is to wet the boots and walk in them allowing them to conform to the foot and eliminating blisters. Other soldiers like non-issue boots and dont mind paying for it out of pocket. Like I said earlier its like a mechanic buying his own tools. While US Army issue sleeping bags are comfortable I have known soldiers to buy civilian stuff because it may be lighter. US troops that have come in contact with Canadian troops give Canadian kit high marks.
 
1st Amtrac Btn, 3rd Marine Division stationed at Cau Viet, 6 miles from DMZ and 12th Marines at Vandergrift (replaced Khe San)
 
GAP said:
1st Amtrac Btn, 3rd Marine Division stationed at Cau Viet, 6 miles from DMZ and 12th Marines at Vandergrift (replaced Khe San)

See, that has nothing to do with GIs, now does it. :)  You won't have trouble convincing me, or anyone else, that the Marines up north had things tough.  :salute:

Welcome Home, by the way, if you didn't hear it when you should have the first time.
 
Ironically, that is the first time, since I came back that anyone said that. Thanks

Let's get back to the issue
 
CFL said:
Just because it has been like that doesn't mean it has to be now or in the future.  That being said if the reasoning behind building new accomidations is being held up by UXO's etc then so be it.  I'd rather use a cot anyway.

The bigger reason behind the fact of the troops on the ground right now sleeping in the Canadian RSOIs is there wasn't a TAT in KAF before we arrived from Kabul.

That plus very limited space availiable for new accomodations hindered putting up more weatherhavens.

Before you guys showed up the troops on the ground were putting up all the weatherhavens by Canada House (less the one's used by the PRT) and the mod tentage / RSOIs being used right now. Add onto all that we still had convoys to do plus setup a whole camp....all thanks to the fact that there was no real catch team in situ. The TAV or whatever you call it showed up after all the real work was done...they showed up to sort it out.

When it comes down to it....nothing the troops could do would have aleiviated the housing problem. We need more cleared land, plain and simple.

I'm surprised they haven't started to move guys into the Yank RSOIs yet....or start building over by the incoming vehicle park on the other side of the RSOI line (by the old poo pond in area 9)

Regards
 
OK, here we go.  No flames intended from my end, but as I recall some of the points, here are mine:
One guy complained about having "only" four magazines.  That count may be innaccurate: four in the TV, one on rifle makes five.  Five times thirty equals 150.  Suppose the section is full up.  He mentions getting out of a LAV.  There are 440 in the coax, and 210 25mm in the main.  7 guys get out, 2 have LMGs (three belts each?  If so, that's 600 rounds each). 5 guys have rifles (each with 150 rounds) for a total of 750 rounds in magazines for the riflemen.  Oh, and two M203 grenade launchers.   ;D That's 1950 rounds for seven guys on the ground.  The LAV crew has access to a coaxially mounted, fully stabilised C6 MG with 440 rounds of 4B1T, and 210 rounds of 25mm "just in case".  That is one hell of a lot of firepower.  And don't forget the pintle mount! 
One word: fire discipline.  .  Suppose "normal rate" of fire, by all at once.  What is that: 10 rounds per minute?  Even with 150 rounds per soldier, that's 15 minutes!  Rapid rate is what: 20 rounds per minute?  That's 7.5 minutes of fire.  "Mad Minutes" only waste rounds, and are a pet peeve of mine!
IF they are in a sustained firefight (not up against some dude with an old, rusting Mosin Nagant, but a bunch of dudes with a bunch of semi-modern rifles), then I can only imagine that the LAV III alone would win the firefight.  If not, the 2 LMGs would be able to help out.  And don't forget the M777s!  You stand alone, but you're never alone, to quote an old recruiting pamphlet.  As well, when I was "over there", we carried ten magazines each, doubling the riflemen 300 rounds each, or 2100 rounds of 5.56mm ball per five dismounted riflemen: not in bandoliers, but in magazines.  And the extra five mags were in an issued piece of kit housed in the side pouch of the TV: the pouch in which the LMG gunners are "supposed" to keep a belt-box.
I hate to say it, but the issued gear is "pretty good", In my professional opinion.  Yes, troops may want "more", but they will ALWAYS want more.  Sometimes with good reason: imagine the 60's pattern Y Strap webbing!  You know those pockets on your combats?  They were designed to hold magazines!  Remember the "sock pouch"?  You think the 82 pattern is junk?  You should see that really old stuff :D
Anyway, the idea of the supply system is to be able to sustain the pointy end.  If everyone goes off and buys the "cool stuff" (sights that bleep and paint the target, GARMIN GPS because the PLGR +96 is "too big", even though they can be encrypted: GARMINs can't, etc), well, then the system cannot keep up.  Yes, some of the issue stuff may not be the best possible, but with any army, what you get is good enough, again, in my professional opinion AND experience.  Carry too much stuff, and you no longer will be able to do your job: you are part of a team, each soldier, sailor, airman and airwoman a cog, and, here comes a buzz word, but the synergy created from such a team is why we have what we have. 
Now, about the boots  :-X
(OK, I've said enough, but there you go)

Hauptmann out
 
take the LAV out of the statement (see mountains), sustained firefight (see Falklands)
bare minimum (see dead)
 
CFL said:
take the LAV out of the statement (see mountains), sustained firefight (see Falklands)
bare minimum (see dead)
The guy mentions getting out of his LAV with "only" four magazines. 
This ain't the Falklands: the Taliban/Al Qaeda don't like sticking around for firefights: the Argies did.
Re: "bare minimum": I agree to a certain extent; however, remember that by definition, "minimum" entails that which is the least acceptable, acceptable being the operative word here. 
In other words, it must pass a standard, it must meet the rigours of combat.  It doesn't have to be the very very best (coolest?) in the world, it has to be able to do it's just, to at least the very minimal acceptable requirement.  It is not subpar by any stretch of the imagination.
 
vonGarvin said:
The guy mentions getting out of his LAV with "only" four magazines. 
This ain't the Falklands: the Taliban/Al Qaeda don't like sticking around for firefights: the Argies did.
Re: "bare minimum": I agree to a certain extent; however, remember that by definition, "minimum" entails that which is the least acceptable, acceptable being the operative word here. 
In other words, it must pass a standard, it must meet the rigours of combat.  It doesn't have to be the very very best (coolest?) in the world, it has to be able to do its job, to at least the very minimal acceptable requirement.  It is not subpar by any stretch of the imagination.
 
OK, my bad: I meant to modify (grammatically) my post; however, I guess I just quoted it.  The second post as it stands was sent in that format in error; however, 2 points to pointing out my misuse of "it's" vice "its" :D
Sorry about that.


Hauptmann
 
It seems like your presuming something that may or may not happen.  They seemed to stick around long enough in Tora Bora.  I don't believe in planning for best case scenario's.  Besides on ex we always got boxed ammo in addition to our 5 mags.  Is it not better to have 10 mags ready to go without having to reload?  As far as C9 gunners I may be wrong but if they take 2 boxes on their TV there isn't room for a water bottle.  The vest sucks.  You can't place the pouches where they fit best.  The mag puches are too high.  There is no vision for M203 gunners etc.  I'll let guys like Kevin B elaborate more.
 
The TV is great for Bosnia but we aren't there.  As with changes in intensity and mission, so to does the equipment change (unfortunatly slowly).  I don't think that your really thinking outside the conventional box.  This is unconventional combat in ardous terrain with a determined enemy who believes in his cause.  If you firmly believe 5 mags per rifleman is adequate in A Stan then no offence but I hope your not in charge of me.
 
What is the basic load for a rifleman in a section in 2001?

It was (waaaaay back when Gordon O'Connor knew and cared) 200 rounds: 80 in four magazines and 120 in a cloth bandoleer on Day 1 of the war.
 
CFL said:
The TV is great for Bosnia but we aren't there.  As with changes in intensity and mission, so to does the equipment change (unfortunatly slowly).  I don't think that your really thinking outside the conventional box.  This is unconventional combat in ardous terrain with a determined enemy who believes in his cause.  If you firmly believe 5 mags per rifleman is adequate in A Stan then no offence but I hope your not in charge of me.
Well, not "firmly" thinking that, just stating that "when I was there" we had ten each, in an issued piece of kit.  "just in case".  
Now, consider the TV: you're right, this ain't Bosnia (late Bosnia, at that: closer to 92?  That's another thread).  Also, the TV ain't the LBV.
Now, there are greater issues than just having all the cool stuff on you.  Greater loads means greater water consumption, as just one example.  Suppose you need 5 litres/day with all this stuff vice say 4 litres (again, just numbers pulled from thin air: to make a point).  That one extra litre, weighing in at 1 kg (don't you love the metric system?  ;D), amounts to "roughly" 150 litres/day per company.  That's just over 7 jerry cans: every day.  What's the standard load?  1 day in the "F" echelon, 2 days in the A1?  Or is it reversed?  Either way, that's three days.  That's over 21 jerry cans.  Over 21 jerry cans MORE.  The point is: for each and every widget you put on, you have to weigh a ton of factors: sustainment.  Not just the sustainment of those widgets, but of the men carrying said widgets.  By the way, 150 litres/day, times three days is 450 EXTRA kilos of "stuff" with the company all the time.  Times 3 companies is what: 1350 kilos?  Plus TFHQ?  We're close to an extra 2 tons just at the TF level.
So, to sum up, it may be "nice" to have all those widgets, but is it "necessary?"  In my professional opinion, we are not selling the troops short.  This ain't Tora Bora in 02 either, this is Tora Bora in 06.  Times have changed (a bit), and with each rifleman carrying *70 kilos of "stuff", it's hard to justify adding "just one more" piece of kit.
If there are problems with the TV (eg: if they truly "suck"), then assume nothing: put in an UCR on them: that's why we had cruddy rainjackets for so long: everyone complained, but not through the proper channels.  Let's face it, if Ottawa hears nothing, then they assume "no news is good news".  And I don't mean a few soldiers talking to the press.  The system may take time, but given proper support, they can even buy stuff COT if there is an urgent operational requirement to do so.  I mean, where were the complaints in 03?  In 04? In 05?  If the TV truly sucked, then I'm sure we would have heard about it before now (I don't mention 02, because from the photos of APOLLO, looks like they had LBVs on)

*that's ten magazines, water, TV, body armour, helmet, rifle, etc.  GPMG gunners, LMG gunners and M203 gunners carry more, naturally.
 
Edward Campbell said:
What is the basic load for a rifleman in a section in 2001?
It was (waaaaay back when Gordon O'Connor knew and cared) 200 rounds: 80 in four magazines and 120 in a cloth bandoleer on Day 1 of the war.
Today (and in 2001), a rifleman carries 5 magazines and a 100 round bandoleer, for a total of 250 rounds.  Having said that, see my earlier post re: Afghanistan 2003: we had 10 mags and a 100 round bandoleer, for a total of 400 rounds.  (300 "ready", 100 able to reload "with difficulty"  ;))
 
Back
Top