"The stuff the army issues is useless" and "no non-issue kit over seas!"
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OldSolduer
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UCRs are all well and good IF they end up on the desk that counts. How do we know they do? How do we know they don't end up being "filed" after the Coy 2I/C forwards them to the Maint O or whoever is supposed to handle them?
You will find that some...luminaries? as some one put it will only tell the General what he wants to hear.
You will find that some...luminaries? as some one put it will only tell the General what he wants to hear.
McG
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If you complete the UCR online, it goes straight to Ottawa. An email is created from you to the LCMM and you CC your chain of command so that they know & action thier part. If your chain of command (up to the CO) supports it, then that one "luminary" in Bde better be ready to make a bloody good argument to the Comd as to why he is not supporting.
Bzzliteyr
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As has been discussed before, many a UCR has been filled on the Tacvest, I believe Vern has all the stats and maybe she'll share them with us so you can see how efficient the UCR is to a CTS "god" in Ottawa (their kit is too good to be unsatisfactory).
McG
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in this thread:Bzzliteyr said:
ArmyVern (Female type) said:
We've also gone over the how & why of UCRs in this thread. If you're not happy with the reply to your UCR, get ythe CoC which initially supported the complaint to engage. It would be hard for an LCMM to brush aside UCR complaints if unit & Bde chain of command (which have already endorsed the UCR) start making noises that the reply is unsatisfactory (and there are people that units & Bdes can make this complaint to).
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Don't forget to mention that the powers that be instructed I-6's tour to fill out ONE UCR for the whole TF. Then later changed the policy.
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The reality check is it takes so long for anything to go through the system. As noted, may of the objections to the Tac Vest were brought up after OP MEDUSA in 2006 (although I suspect many people were saying it even before). Even assuming that the new requirements could be formulated and agreed on quickly, there is then the tendering process, Treasury board approval, manufacture, issuing....
It took over a decade to get a Rucksack issued out, and it doesn't look substantially different from the prototypes I saw trialled in the 1990's. For all I know the real reason is they now make it out of gold rather than nylon
. Getting the G-wagon and Milcots took forever, and the only things that come at us fast and furious are specialty equipment purchased off the shelf in small quantities for operations, like the RG-31 or Leopard 2A6 tanks. (Yes, they cost vastly more than a load bearing vest, but when there are only 50-100 on order, the processing, shipping and handling is much quicker.)
At the current rate of speed, a new, modular load bearing vest might not arrive until 2016! I hope I am wrong, though.
It took over a decade to get a Rucksack issued out, and it doesn't look substantially different from the prototypes I saw trialled in the 1990's. For all I know the real reason is they now make it out of gold rather than nylon
. Getting the G-wagon and Milcots took forever, and the only things that come at us fast and furious are specialty equipment purchased off the shelf in small quantities for operations, like the RG-31 or Leopard 2A6 tanks. (Yes, they cost vastly more than a load bearing vest, but when there are only 50-100 on order, the processing, shipping and handling is much quicker.)At the current rate of speed, a new, modular load bearing vest might not arrive until 2016! I hope I am wrong, though.
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Of course not. What's the use?
They've had people coming up to them conferences saying there needs to be movement on the tac vest issue and there's been all sorts of lessons learned data come in. It just seems to me that this is a way of perpetuating a bad idea. People are voting with their feet and wallets on this issue. Purging non-issue vests from official photographs and ordering people not to wear kit that works will only go so far. Just as our forbears discarded their Ross rifles and recovered Lee Enfields from their fallen allies, so will many of today's troops take the initiative on this matter.
A
aesop081
Guest
Osotogari said:
Would it have made things worse ?
No
daftandbarmy
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If it's any consolation, I was trials officer in 1986 (wayyyyy back in the time of the first shuttle disaster) in Norway with 45 Cdo. We trialled a mix of 'Tac Vest' type rigs as well as chest rigs. These trials went on for several years. The British Army did not put chest rigs on general issue until the early 90s under the Personal Load Carrying Equipment (PLCE) program. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_Load_Carrying_Equipment
Until then, we all had to purchase our own chest rigs and other kit for NI and other operational tours, usually from Arktis http://www.arktisltd.co.uk/. We also bought bergens (rucksacks) from Berghaus http://www.berghaus.com/ and raingear from Barbour http://www.barbour.com/.
You knew you were going back to NI several times, so it was a wise investment, but we each still spent a bunch of cash on this kit: the equivalent of hundreds of dollars. This was madness as far as I was concerned as the army had been in NI for decades b ut still had not issued suitable kit.
When I see that Canada has had a tac vest on general issue for a few years, and hear that upgrades are being made available to troops going over in this latest roto, I've got to think that there's something going right out there.
I know that nothing ever happens fast enough re: kit for the infantry, but this is pretty good IMHO.
Until then, we all had to purchase our own chest rigs and other kit for NI and other operational tours, usually from Arktis http://www.arktisltd.co.uk/. We also bought bergens (rucksacks) from Berghaus http://www.berghaus.com/ and raingear from Barbour http://www.barbour.com/.
You knew you were going back to NI several times, so it was a wise investment, but we each still spent a bunch of cash on this kit: the equivalent of hundreds of dollars. This was madness as far as I was concerned as the army had been in NI for decades b ut still had not issued suitable kit.
When I see that Canada has had a tac vest on general issue for a few years, and hear that upgrades are being made available to troops going over in this latest roto, I've got to think that there's something going right out there.
I know that nothing ever happens fast enough re: kit for the infantry, but this is pretty good IMHO.
Bzzliteyr
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You know what I think the issue might be with UCRs? The "unknown" of them. By that I mean to say that most of the soldiers I know, that I work with don't even have a DWAN log on to go see what a UCR is.. then the hassle of trying to find where they are on the DIN can be a daunting task to anyone not familiar with a computer. Then the job of filling them out, taking pictures to include with them, etc etc..
I am going to go online (in Afghanistan) in a minute and see how long it would take someone to find and fill an actual UCR. I will report back once I am done.
I am going to go online (in Afghanistan) in a minute and see how long it would take someone to find and fill an actual UCR. I will report back once I am done.
Bzzliteyr
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Yes I have, but with food deliveries etc.. I haven't been able to log on DWAN.
I am here now and am laughing uncontrollably (like crazy people do in the movies). I have just logged on, went directly to the link i had for UCRs and clicked on submit UCR. I was presented with a pop up window saying "You are about to create a new Unsatisfactory Condition Report (UCR). If you have not read the CFTO for UCRs, it is advised that you read the document for this technical order below". I click the link and up pops a 66 page CFTO on how to complete a UCR.
I figure "I can do this without some silly book" so I jump straight to the UCR page... first thing.. Assigned OPI..hmm.. wtf is that? There is a link to click to find this out.. good, it should be easy (by the way this is step 1, on page 1 of 5). CLICK! "As all Equipment and Materiel data, including TA mapping information, are now maintained via MASIS and available to all DIN users through various other web tools, the EMM look up tool O&M cost are no longer justified.
It has therefore been decided to revoke this web site."
Huh? Oh, there is a button beside the form.. it says OPI List, I'll click it and stop crying...oh cute, another pop up window.. this should be simple.. pick a name from a list? Hmm, an empty gray window.. I must have made a mistake. I'll try again. Nope, nothing, nada. Must not be too important anyhow.. off to block 2.
I CAN DO THIS ONE!! Element.. I choose Army and start smiling.
Block 3!!! Woohoo!! Priority...(with a little red star, must be really important ) Crap.. I don't know what this means.. I should've read the manual. RTFM as they say in computer jargon.. page 1-2.. blah blah blah (oh my head hurts)....
"To save time and effort, telephone
contact with the TA, normally the
LCMM, should be made to report a
condition that would otherwise have
to be reported via an Information
UCR. The TA may request a UCR be
raised and may be able to provide
additional information which has
already been established regarding
the particular problem."
Is this my mother tongue here? I am confused.. let's just say "routine" and move to block 4.
Crap.. moving on to what I thought was block 4 brings me to a block numbered "2"...how did I manage to mess that up? Oh well, ship/unit.. I can do that. Done.
Block 5? (3?) Unit UCR number.. of course.. the number they gave me when I decided I would personally raise a UCR.. the UCR office sent it to me.. now where did I put it?!? Oh, better yet.. another link to click on to get it quicker.. here we go! CLICK!! O..M..G... I can't cut and paste it in here because it is a different type of pop up window than the others. but it says "this field must be 14 characters long in the format: BLAH BLAH BLAH" Wow.. I give up.
Well then.. time to call the media.. it's just so much easier..
If I have the energy later I might try to get past the first few blocks...I am glad I am not a simple private with no knowledge or background in computers or the "military way"..
I am here now and am laughing uncontrollably (like crazy people do in the movies). I have just logged on, went directly to the link i had for UCRs and clicked on submit UCR. I was presented with a pop up window saying "You are about to create a new Unsatisfactory Condition Report (UCR). If you have not read the CFTO for UCRs, it is advised that you read the document for this technical order below". I click the link and up pops a 66 page CFTO on how to complete a UCR.
I figure "I can do this without some silly book" so I jump straight to the UCR page... first thing.. Assigned OPI..hmm.. wtf is that? There is a link to click to find this out.. good, it should be easy (by the way this is step 1, on page 1 of 5). CLICK! "As all Equipment and Materiel data, including TA mapping information, are now maintained via MASIS and available to all DIN users through various other web tools, the EMM look up tool O&M cost are no longer justified.
It has therefore been decided to revoke this web site."
Huh? Oh, there is a button beside the form.. it says OPI List, I'll click it and stop crying...oh cute, another pop up window.. this should be simple.. pick a name from a list? Hmm, an empty gray window.. I must have made a mistake. I'll try again. Nope, nothing, nada. Must not be too important anyhow.. off to block 2.
I CAN DO THIS ONE!! Element.. I choose Army and start smiling.
Block 3!!! Woohoo!! Priority...(with a little red star, must be really important ) Crap.. I don't know what this means.. I should've read the manual. RTFM as they say in computer jargon.. page 1-2.. blah blah blah (oh my head hurts)....
"To save time and effort, telephone
contact with the TA, normally the
LCMM, should be made to report a
condition that would otherwise have
to be reported via an Information
UCR. The TA may request a UCR be
raised and may be able to provide
additional information which has
already been established regarding
the particular problem."
Is this my mother tongue here? I am confused.. let's just say "routine" and move to block 4.
Crap.. moving on to what I thought was block 4 brings me to a block numbered "2"...how did I manage to mess that up? Oh well, ship/unit.. I can do that. Done.
Block 5? (3?) Unit UCR number.. of course.. the number they gave me when I decided I would personally raise a UCR.. the UCR office sent it to me.. now where did I put it?!? Oh, better yet.. another link to click on to get it quicker.. here we go! CLICK!! O..M..G... I can't cut and paste it in here because it is a different type of pop up window than the others. but it says "this field must be 14 characters long in the format: BLAH BLAH BLAH" Wow.. I give up.
Well then.. time to call the media.. it's just so much easier..
If I have the energy later I might try to get past the first few blocks...I am glad I am not a simple private with no knowledge or background in computers or the "military way"..
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Bzzz,
Get a paper copy and fill it in --- your "UCR co-ordinater" (funny that name for that secondary duty) will do the rest.
:-\
If you don't know who your Unit UCR Co-ord is ... I recommended asking your Unit LogO (a very very very good place to start).
Doesn't your Unit have a listing of duties & resp of pers serving in it's positions avail to you, the members of that Unit? Like an HA/WRA list (mandatory), Unit SafetyO (mandatory), EnviroO (mandatory) -- all should be posted in a prominent location accessible by the troops (like the Unit Canteen). ... Communication is a wonderful thing sometimes and tends to help with avoiding the heartache you experienced below.
Get a paper copy and fill it in --- your "UCR co-ordinater" (funny that name for that secondary duty) will do the rest.
:-\
If you don't know who your Unit UCR Co-ord is ... I recommended asking your Unit LogO (a very very very good place to start).
Doesn't your Unit have a listing of duties & resp of pers serving in it's positions avail to you, the members of that Unit? Like an HA/WRA list (mandatory), Unit SafetyO (mandatory), EnviroO (mandatory) -- all should be posted in a prominent location accessible by the troops (like the Unit Canteen). ... Communication is a wonderful thing sometimes and tends to help with avoiding the heartache you experienced below.
Bzzliteyr
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Vern, currently in Afghanistan I am not too sure who many of those people are, let alone where it is even posted. I understand all those secondary duty tasks.. I got stuck with a few in Gagetown when I worked at the school. I am just saying, most young soldiers that would want to start the UCR process by themselves.. might get spooked and avoid it altogether.. as you can see, it is/was a daunting task online.
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Bzzliteyr said:
Using the DIN to search for anything often becomes the exercise in futility that you so eloquently described. ;D That being said, maybe using the paper copy is the best recourse as Vern mentioned countless times on this site. 8)
Bzzliteyr
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I understand the paper route.. that is not what I am trying to illustrate here. I am trying to show the the probable reason behind the lack of UCRs is the difficulties in making them real..whether they be paper or not, it seems to be an intimidating process for most soldiers.
McG
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That’s a Jr leadership problem that should be sorted out at the Pl/Tp & Sub-unit. If the troops are intimidated, then their immediate Sr NCOs should be helping them through it. If that is not happening, then maybe a sub-unit Jr Leader PD session is required, but there is no reason that any Sr NCO should lack the ability to make this happen at the section level.Bzzliteyr said:
If the Sect Comd does not understand the form, the Sect Comd should know where to find a Sup Tech that can explain NSN, PSCN, Group Class, Higher Assembly, TA Code, ERN/EAC, etc.
From the DWAN, if you know the NSN then you can find the lead TA code here: http://dgmssc.ottawa-hull.mil.ca/DTICS/SITE/CGCS_Search_e.asp
