"The stuff the army issues is useless" and "no non-issue kit over seas!"

[medaid]

Replied,and cheers!

 

[Bomber]

@ CTS     

Im a rental that was previously employed by DLR, but never actually within CTS, kind of a CTS associate guy I guess, but never enough to add to a business card.

 

[KevinB]

Sorry my bad -- I did not mean the insult.

 

[McG]

I've had to fill in a UCR or two in my day, without the help of supply it couldn't have been done.  Bureaucrats needs an out, an error or omission on a UCR is a perfect out.

If some technical omission is being used as an argument for an LCMM to ignore a UCR, then he needs a good kick (and there is a CWO UCR coordinator named in the DWAN site who could likely do that if the originator were to send a complaint.  Now, at the same time, a UCR that lacks the any commentary of value is of no use even to someone that agrees with & is attempting to push the opinion of the originator.  It's not enough to just say "Item X is crap" or "I buy brand 2 & I think it is better than your crappy X."  (and UCRs do get submitted like this).  If you are going to take the time to write a UCR, then take the time to explain why item X is crap.  That is the only way to give your supporters in Ottawa the ammunition they need to help you with your problem.

WHERE DO ALL THE UCRs GO!!!

From the sender to the LCMM (who may be military or civilian).   One weakness of the UCR system is that it does not CC any point in the CoC between sender & LCMM (except maybe the one national UCR coordinator in Ottawa who attempts to make sure that these reports don't get left unactioned). While the unit should be aware of what is happening (because the unit UCR coordinator controls the serial numbers), the CoC should be passing this information to formation (bde or NCE) and command (Army or CEFCOM) on all UCRs of a mission critical or life saving issue.  This will ensure command & operational support/backing to finding a solution. (and solutions to problems can die quickly if the leadership turns around and says "we don't want that because we're happy with what we have"

Additionally, anyone can review & add reinforcing commentary to an open UCR.  I personally would recommend that when a Cpl submitts a UCR then the Sect Comd & Pl Comd should both be adding comments for the LCMM. As Vern mentioned, one UCR for a unit is not enough in some cases.  Get every user that has an opinion to write one. 

We need a section formed up of different personnel from different branches to just T&E equipment. No freaking design genius need apply. TRIAL: beat it to crap and put it through its paces EVAL: get what you like and don't like on paper. If it can be addressed it would be, if not, move on to the next product.

It is called LFTEU & it is in Gagetown.  It actually reports to the Army too.

Well, if it isn't cadpat AR ... CTS has now come out with an AR cover for camelbaks (see ppt update briefing in earlier post in this thread) ...

We've only been there since 2002. 

It can't have been a "just" because the covers were there when I first got there at the start of 06.

Not liking that little tidbit of info.  Was this always the intent? 

I've known for a few years now that only soldiers in light jobs were supposed to get the new ruck while everyone else would replace the old ruck with a small pack.  There was a message posted on a 1 CER bulletin board in an attempt to answer the many questions that everyone seemed to have at the time the small packs were fist issued.

... if people are running around in a war zone, making sure that the TVs the troops are wearing are issue, along with boots, socks and so forth, then we're going to lose this war. 

But, we were able to do it at Vimy despite those same type of folks ensuring the troops were all wearing their ties. 

 

[armyvern]

It can't have been a "just" because the covers were there when I first got there at the start of 06.

Sure there were 'some' there. Just like the AR raingear that 'some' (but far from 'all') had over there ... after all, you've got to have someone trial them in theatre for you before you rush out on the big contract for provision.  >

 

[TCBF]

"I've known for a few years now that only soldiers in light jobs were supposed to get the new ruck while everyone else would replace the old ruck with a small pack."

- Won't work on Baffin Island.  "Travel light - freeze at night".

 

[armyvern]

"I've known for a few years now that only soldiers in light jobs were supposed to get the new ruck while everyone else would replace the old ruck with a small pack."

- Won't work on Baffin Island.  "Travel light - freeze at night".

Who said that?

Everyone else's ruck isn't being replaced by the small pack. They're keeping their old rucks ... along with the small packs they've been issued.

 

[logan7979]

I wouldn't bother complaining, fact is the Canadian Forces has lost all respect in my eyes.

Hopefully i will be deploying in 2009 in the battle group, i will probably spend a good amount on equipment... it may seem like a lot, but i dont waste my money, and having the best equipment is essential. Before you scream kit whore, i watched my friends laugh at me when i bought my $1000 of running gear when i came to battalion. I just finished my first half marathon and plan on running the boston marathon. $400 custom insoles do wonders people.
Look at the world of professional sports, do you think they compromise on their equipment??? Fact is whether your old school or not, better equipment at the very least makes you more efficient.

We dont need much, but it is nonetheless essential. One question still remains... when i will actually wear it...whether its right before we leave the wire, or once we have left...will i do a switch. Either way, i invite anyone to convince me that our equipment is good.

Heres my tentative list...

ARMOUR
-Plate Carrier (eagle ciras, probably the best) w/ all the armour attachments, groin, neck, shoulder, deltoid etc... $1000ish
-Various MOLLE pouches, mag holders, first aid, utility, $200 ish
-ESAPI plates (our regular sapi plates dont make the cut...)  $500 (x2)
-MICH helmet (this is a luxury, it weighs 2lbs and can easily be fitted with a night vision bracket) Also better ballistic protection, can stop a 9mm, and has deflected point blank 7.62 impacts... mind you the force put him in a coma, but he woke up, regained sight and is somewhat normal these days. $500
-Forearm Protection (these are nice because they are as solid kevlar gloves, which extend down your arm offering very good frag protection) $250



Fact is you cant truly protect your lower body yet... either way as a crew commander your upper body is most vulnerable. Also with the CIRAS vest, it can easily be released, one pull on its release system and its off. I dont know about you, but getting the TV, and then the Frag vest off takes quite awhile. 

Weapon:
get rid of the c79
-Eotech
-Arms Buis
-Magpulls

It's all about priorities people, all this stuff can be resold once you return, lots of starving u.s troops can only afford 2nd hand. I watch my friends buy $1500 TV's, xboxs etc, yet spending a good chunk of change on body armour is considered crazy.

It's time people start using their head

-Mcpl
Valcatier, Quebec

 

[George Wallace]

Well.  In some ways I must agree with you 100%.  In others, I am a little bit skeptical and think of it as a waste and not such a good idea.  On others I must say I would if I could afford them.  So I am 100% for some of what you said, 90% against some of what you said and then 50/50 on other portions of your post.

I'll have to agree 100% on your running gear and about 90% on some of your body armour suggestions.  I would have to go 90% against your helmet idea, but am willing to think about it.  Much of your body armour ideas are in my 50/50 approval rating, mostly on what I could afford or not; not on the protection factor (that would be a higher percentage of approval).

 

[armyvern]

It's time people start using their head

-Mcpl
Valcatier, Quebec

Two questions for you.

Have you done your job and submitted your observations via the UCR process? Have you had your personnel do the same?

Swamp them with UCRs like the official system calls for, as that IS the way to report kit defeciencies, and DO something about it instead of talking about it.

5 UCRS (official complaints) sitting in NDHQ when 35000 people have been issued the kit -- means that 34996 people have NOT told NDHQ they have a complaint about the kit. And, sadly -- that's what it all boils down to. If the troops want to have the kit changed -- the troops are going to have to tell NDHQ that ... en masse.

 

[Towards_the_gap]

I wouldn't bother complaining, fact is the Canadian Forces has lost all respect in my eyes.

I have just come from the British Army, and if you think the Canadian Army is under/ill-equipped, well I can guarantee you we're not.

It's all about priorities people, all this stuff can be resold once you return, lots of starving u.s troops can only afford 2nd hand. I watch my friends buy $1500 TV's, xboxs etc, yet spending a good chunk of change on body armour is considered crazy.

It's time people start using their head

-Mcpl
Valcatier, Quebec

I also have priorities, like a wife, new house and baby on the way. No problems by me if you want to spend that sort of money on kit you get issued, however, bear in mind not everyone can afford it. However I do agree with the running kit expenditure. You can replace insoles, not knees.

 

[PhilB]

Heres my tentative list...

ARMOUR
-Plate Carrier (eagle ciras, probably the best) w/ all the armour attachments, groin, neck, shoulder, deltoid etc... $1000ish
-Various MOLLE pouches, mag holders, first aid, utility, $200 ish
-ESAPI plates (our regular sapi plates dont make the cut...)  $500 (x2)
-MICH helmet (this is a luxury, it weighs 2lbs and can easily be fitted with a night vision bracket) Also better ballistic protection, can stop a 9mm, and has deflected point blank 7.62 impacts... mind you the force put him in a coma, but he woke up, regained sight and is somewhat normal these days. $500
-Forearm Protection (these are nice because they are as solid kevlar gloves, which extend down your arm offering very good frag protection) $250

Weapon:
get rid of the c79
-Eotech
-Arms Buis
-Magpulls

Logan,

Let me address some of your points. A bit of background before I start. I went overseas on TF 1-06 and I am set to deploy, in the battle group with TF 1-08. I am also a self professed kit slut. That being said I disagree with a lot of the kit you are planning on buying. Let me place a caveat on that, I dont disagree with it, but let me give you a reality check.

-Armour - You want to buy a CIRAS and use ESAPI plates. Thats fine it is a good piece of kit. The problem with your post is several fold, after 1-06 and now looking at whats going on on 1-08 I can tell you that you will not be able to use non issue armour inside the wire or out. I had a couple buddies that used CIRAS's on 1-06, they were told they could use them, over top of the issue armour. This is uncomfortable, and not what the CIRAS is designed for. I agree there is better soft armour out there than what we have, if you want to spend money on upgraded armour it may be an idea to look at getting some custom made soft panels made that will fit our issue carrier. As far as ESAPI plates go, you are looking at more than $500 a plate first off, then I would say that it is not really necessary. Our plates are not that bad, and provide good protection, the down side in them is that they are heavier than ESAPI's. Having held one of our plates in one hand and an ESAPI in the other I would say that the American plate is about half the weight of our plate. So then the decision has to be made again, are you willing to spend all of that money, and hassel (good luck finding a source that will sell a set of ESAPI's  to a Canadian and mail them to Canada), for a set of plates that is lighter (I am suggesting using the plates in the issue carrier). If you want to use upgraded armour you can, and get away with it as long as it is all in the issue AR Cadpat carrier. I would do that, and then buy a chest rig to go over the armour. You are taking the risk yourself as to whether or not what you bought was authentic and provides the stated protection.

- MOLLE pouches - couldn't agree more, great piece of kit.

-MICH Helmet - Again, like the armour discussion above. I know of a few people that bought MICH's on 1-06 and then were forced to go back to the Canadian issue helmet. In my experience the chain of command will usually let chest rigs and other pieces of non issue kit fly outside the wire, but not armour. Look at it from their point of view; protection of the soldier is their primary focus. They know that the issue armour and helmet work, and have neither the time or inclination to research and verify the ballistic properties of the armour and helmet that you want to use, so its back to what they know works. The MICH is slightly lighter than our helmet, mainly because it is cut higher. The higher cut has advantages and disadvantages, it reduces the weight, allows for better integration with amour and comms but lowers your coverage area i.e. less of your head and upper neck is protected. From reading your post above it seems that protection is your primary focus do you want to reduce your coverage? Now, the MICH is superior in terms of suspension, the Oregon Aero pads and strap that are in the helmet are leaps and bounds ahead of ours. You can get those straps and pads from several Canadian retailers and retrofit your issue helmet. That is what I have done to my helmet and it is quite comfortable. Finally, the NVG bracket, you can drill a hole in the front of our helmet just as easily as there is one drilled in the front of the MICH. I really like the MICH, I like it better than our helmet, and if I could get away using one I would. I havent bought one because there is a slim to non chance that it would be allowed for wear.

- Forearm Protection - Im not exactly sure what you are meaning here, do you have a link? The only thing I would say is just remember the heat and amount of weight you are going to be dealing with overseas, dont over burden yourself with superfluous pieces of kit.

- Eotech - completely agree, although you might want to wait out as if you are issued a C8A2 most are coming with eotechs.

-ARMS BUIS - again agree on the need for a BUIS however the arms #40 BUIS does not easily fit the Canadian upper (Our rails are not to American mil specs). I would suggest going with a Troy, MI, or LMT sight. I know all of those ones fit.

- Magpuls - Sure, they are personal preference.

Now having said all of that I would save your money on the amour and helmet and buy some different stuff. I have bought a chest rig, boots (the issue ones are junk!), Oakley sunglasses (I got really bad headaches using the issue ballistic glasses on 1-06), nomex gloves, helmet suspension upgrades, forearm rails for my weapon and a few other things. If you want more details just pm me. I agree that there is nothing wrong with spending money on kit that could potentially save your life overseas. I would just research what you want a bit more, and be more realistic about what you will and will not be able to use overseas.

 

[geo]

One big thing sticks in my craw right now.....

fact is the Canadian Forces has lost all respect in my eyes.

If you have no respect for the CF.... then what the H are you still hanging around for?

 

[geo]

Big problem with wearing non issue balistic plates and helmets...

Though the issue kit might be a little bit larger and a little bit heavier, if you get injured in spite of your personal investment in protective kit, you WILL have some major problems with the CFs health system AND Veteran affairs afterwards.

Don't want to pee on anyone's choices and decisions BUT, if treatment AND compensation is denied or limited because you willfuly chose not to use the issue kit..... you won't have much grounds to appeal.

IIRC the US Army issued similar comments on personal body armour use in Iraq & Afghanistan.  They will assume responsiblilty for injuries where THEIR kit did not work as advertised.  They will not assume responsibility for injuries where YOUR kit did not work as advertised.

 

[Armymedic]

One big thing sticks in my craw right now.....

If you have no respect for the CF.... then what the H are you still hanging around for?

Obviously, for the money. To pay for the kit he "thinks" he needs.

 

[RCR Grunt]

Big problem with wearing non issue balistic plates and helmets...

Though the issue kit might be a little bit larger and a little bit heavier, if you get injured in spite of your personal investment in protective kit, you WILL have some major problems with the CFs health system AND Veteran affairs afterwards.

Don't want to pee on anyone's choices and decisions BUT, if treatment AND compensation is denied or limited because you willfuly chose not to use the issue kit..... you won't have much grounds to appeal.

IIRC the US Army issued similar comments on personal body armor use in Iraq & Afghanistan.  They will assume responsiblilty for injuries where THEIR kit did not work as advertised.  They will not assume responsibility for injuries where YOUR kit did not work as advertised.

Though the issue kit might be a little bit larger and a little bit heavier, if you get injured in spite of your personal investment in protective kit, you WON'T HAVE ANY major problems with the CFs health system AND Veteran affairs afterwards.

I've said this before and I'm about to say it again ... I've made the calls, I've asked the questions, I've gotten the answers.  Both SISIP and VAC will cover you regardless of the kit you are wearing.  SISIP covers you both civvy side and duty side, and no one wears armor on the 401 so they cover you regardless.  VAC covers service related injuries.  So if your injured in the line of duty, whether you are wearing the latest and greatest piece of CTS gear or a pretty pink tu-tu, you are covered.

This argument has been made for some time in an effort to "scare" troops into wearing the sometimes inferior but issued gear.  It is false, and a moot argument, and this is the third time I've had to restate this. 

Oh, and we're not the US Army.

 

[NL_engineer]

But with that said, if the COC says you will were the issued kit, it is a direct and legal order; despite any objections we may have we have to follow.

 

[RCR Grunt]

But with that said, if the COC says you will were the issued kit, it is a direct and legal order; despite any objections we may have we have to follow.

Yes, but I don't need to be "scared" into following a direct and lawful order.

The CoC knows there is better kit out there, why do you think some commanders allow troops to buy it and use it overseas?  Somewhere, someone is persuading the CoC that issued = the only thing going, and that whatever our allies use is sub standard to our "CTS revelations."

 

[PhilB]

RCR I agree completely. I think the flip side to that is un-informed troops messing it up for the rest of us. What I mean is every time a troop buys a sub standard piece of kit that fails in the field, every time a troop spends lots of money on superfluous kit (how many people do you know that have spent stupid amounts of money on huge "jackhawk 3000" tank buster knives that have no purpose  > ) the chain of command can point to that and say "thats why issue kit only be used". IMHO the more informed troops, that are forced to go out and spend their money on kit that will actually, work the better, to a certain degree. They shouldn't have to, and it indicates a clear failure in the system that they do but eventually if enough people are using other stuff the chain and the system will follow (fingers crossed). That or the dinosaurs will be gone and more nlightened leaders will have the reins. Before anyone pipes up about UCR's yes I have submitted UCR's, in fact I have submitted multiple UCR's on the tac vest, wet weather boots, helmet suspension, and the small pack. I realize that UCR's are supposed to work, and they do in some instances, but I think that there is to much vested interest in some senior leadership in CTS.

 

[aesop081]

That or the dinosaurs will be gone and more nlightened leaders will have the reins.

20 years from now, the CF will be fighting in  (insert country name) and the young soldiers of the day will be calling you the dinosaur.