The "Occupy" Movement

[ballz]

I don't see the problem as 'inequality'

The problem is not inequality, like I said, some level of inequality is necessary. If inequality didn't exist what would motivate a person? If there was no "top percentile of wealth" to try and get into, why would anybody be an entrepreneur?

The problem is when inequality becomes so great, like it was during the industrial revolution, that there is no way out of the bottom. I'm about "equal opportunity," not "equal wealth." When inequality becomes so great that people can't reach the bottom rung of the ladder in order to start climbing it, then society has a problem. I don't live in the US, I don't know how much of a problem this is for them. I *do* know that however big or small the problem is, it is growing.

And no, I don't consider people who get a 30k degree in basket-weaving to have not had an opportunity to climb the ladder

 

[Edward Campbell]

Actually, ballz is right: the inequality problem is, really, a mobility of wealth problem. People must be able to move up (and down) the wealth ladder based on their own skills, knowledge and efforts.

But, and there's always a 'but,' never in all of recorded history has wealth been so mobile, never has effort counted for so much and 'status' for so little.

But nothing is enough for the "occupiers" because - I know I am repeating myself - they are children throwing a tantrum ... and they need to be treated as such.

The "occupy" movement ~ every single person
involved, including e.g. Jeffrey Sachs who is a supporter

 

[vonGarvin]

So...we ought to threaten them with something akin to the end of the world, but end up doing nothing and giving in to them?  /sarcasm

 

[Edward Campbell]

So...we ought to threaten them with something akin to the end of the world, but end up doing nothing and giving in to them?  /sarcasm

Sarcasm noted, but I'll answer anyway: Nope, they ought to be made to stand in the corner, but not a public park 'corner,' and do a "time out." Mayors and other assorted elected and appointed public officials* are derelict in their duties; it's time they did what civic responsibility requires: bring in the water cannons, billy-clubs and bulldozers. If the children will not move then beat them into submission.

_____
* You would laugh, well maybe cry, at watching the City of Ottawa (politicians and police) saying "It (the park being occupied) is National Capital Commission property so we will not act to enforce any laws, not even public health regulations, until the property owner, the NCC (which is an agency of the federal government) asks or demands. We will not give the "occupiers" the boot just because they are breaking laws and breaching all manner of quite important (fire and health) regulations." This was immediately followed by a NCC "spokeperson" who said, "Oh, no! This is a demonstration, not an event for which a permit was issued, and demonstrations are the city's responsibility. We will not kick out the "occupiers" just because they are fouling our park and breaching most of our permitted use regulations." We, Canadians, elect and then the elected appoint craven cowards.

 

[ballz]

Actually, ballz is right: the inequality problem is, really, a mobility of wealth problem. People must be able to move up (and down) the wealth ladder based on their own skills, knowledge and efforts.

But, and there's always a 'but,' never in all of recorded history has wealth been so mobile, never has effort counted for so much and 'status' for so little.

But nothing is enough for the "occupiers" because - I know I am repeating myself - they are children throwing a tantrum ... and they need to be treated as such.

The "occupy" movement ~ every single person
involved, including e.g. Jeffrey Sachs who is a supporter

Like I said, I was unaware of what the "wealth mobility" picture looked like, so after your comment of it being more mobile now than ever, I had to do a quick double check. This graph says quite the opposite. It says wealth mobility has been on the downward trend since the 40s. I know you posted some info about wealth mobility earlier in this thread though, and I will definitely look back to compare.

http://gecon.blogspot.com/2010/04/15-charts-on-wealth-and-income.html

 

[mariomike]

Mayors and other assorted elected and appointed public officials* are derelict in their duties; it's time they did what civic responsibility requires: bring in the water cannons, billy-clubs and bulldozers. If the children will not move then beat them into submission.

But, if history is any indication...
Rochdale was bad, and it was allowed to drag on a long time.
More recently - less than ten years ago - there was Tent City, "twenty-seven lawless acres where the largest hobo town on the continent squats". It was Toronto’s first major squatter settlement in recent history. They illegally tapped into the city power grid. Many were drug addicts and prostitutes. Metro Police "would not usually enter it unless a major crime was committed." There was illegal garbage dumping. All sorts of health and fire violations. I saw rats in there. There were suicides and emergency childbirths.
Tent City lasted a little over four years before they were evicted.

 

[Edward Campbell]

Like I said, I was unaware of what the "wealth mobility" picture looked like, so after your comment of it being more mobile now than ever, I had to do a quick double check. This graph says quite the opposite. It says wealth mobility has been on the downward trend since the 40s. I know you posted some info about wealth mobility earlier in this thread though, and I will definitely look back to compare.

http://gecon.blogspot.com/2010/04/15-charts-on-wealth-and-income.html

Sorry, I should have been more clear. I'm looking at the broad, historical trend, all over the world, for the past 4,500 years. A short term (50 years) 'blip' in America doesn't really count and, on a global basis, it is more than offset by India and China anyway.

 

[ballz]

Sorry, I should have been more clear. I'm looking at the broad, historical trend, all over the world, for the past 4,500 years. A short term (50 years) 'blip' in America doesn't really count and, on a global basis, it is more than offset by India and China anyway.

Ah, I see. Well, I think it's kind of a dangerous precedent to hold ourselves to the standards of 4500 years ago, or India and China. If we're going to compare ourselves to that standard then we will always be satisfied and never progress. The "American dream" wasn't coined on those standards.

That said, I'm confident that the dream is still alive and well here in Canada, so I am pretty satisfied (although avoiding having global recessions that affect Canada is pretty important). It's honestly the Occupy movement in Canada that makes me think of spoiled children throwing a tantrum.

 

[Edward Campbell]

... It's honestly the Occupy movement in Canada that makes me think of spoiled children throwing a tantrum.

You and me both.

 

[GAP]

:+1: and the list of supporters provided by Thucydides in

Re: Occupy Wall Street
« Reply #296 on: Yesterday at 17:57:11 »

 

[Edward Campbell]

And the "occupations" have costs, direct and indirect costs, which are, apparently, lost on the dimwit "occupiers."

This disconnected .001% will have its bills paid by the 99% because, I assure you, the top 1% don't even notice and their wealthy, suburban enclaves are not being "occupied." Have you heard of "Occupy Loudoun County, Va" (America's richest county - outside Washington, DC - where the real plutocrats live) or "Occupy Nassau County, N.Y." (where the Wall Streeters live)? Of course you haven't and nor will you because:

1. The "occupiers," 100% of them, are too stupid to take their battle to the 1%'s homes. They "occupy" areas in which the real 99% works; and

2. The civic officials in Loudoun and Nasseau counties would have the water cannons, billy-sticks and bulldozers at the ready and the first sign of an "occupier," and they, the county officials would use 'em, too. They know who pays their salaries.

 

[Edward Campbell]

And here is a perfect explanation of how the media treats the problems about which the "occupiers" complain:

Courtesy the Ottawa Citizen

 

[Jungle]

Things are brewing up in Québec City; Mayor Labeaume wants them gone... friday PM the fire dept and police went in and confiscated anything that can cause a fire. MTF !!

 

[Edward Campbell]

Things are brewing up in Québec City; Mayor Labeaume wants them gone... friday PM the fire dept and police went in and confiscated anything that can cause a fire. MTF !!

Good, a responsible civic leader! BZ!

Le maire de Québec,
Régis Labeaume

 

[larry Strong]

Good, a responsible civic leader! BZ!

And that is THE key componet that is missing.....we (Canada) have no real "Leaders" anymore.

 

[ModlrMike]

My response to the Occupy crowd:

Over the last half century I've spent time in many countries. Some of the best, and some of the worst. I've seen things that would make your hair fall out. I've been shot at and blown up. With all of that experience I've discovered three truths in life that I will now share with you:

1. Your life is hard? So is everyone else's.
2. Your life is not fair? Neither is anyone elses'.
3. Nobody cares.

All of life's outcomes can be tested against these truths. Either in isolation or taken together.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

OOOOOH, I am so stealing that for my Facebook status...

 

[FlyingDutchman]

I just thought that was common knowledge.

 

[Jungle]

My response to the Occupy crowd:

Over the last half century I've spent time in many countries. Some of the best, and some of the worst. I've seen things that would make your hair fall out. I've been shot at and blown up. With all of that experience I've discovered three truths in life that I will now share with you:

1. Your life is hard? So is everyone else's.
2. Your life is not fair? Neither is anyone elses'.
3. Nobody cares.

All of life's outcomes can be tested against these truths. Either in isolation or taken together.

Good post !!

Yeah, life is unfair; the ultimate unfairness is that they were born in Canada, while others are born in Afghanistan, Haiti or North Korea, for example. But they don't realize they are on the good side of that deal.

 

[Snaketnk]

My response to the Occupy crowd:

Over the last half century I've spent time in many countries. Some of the best, and some of the worst. I've seen things that would make your hair fall out. I've been shot at and blown up. With all of that experience I've discovered three truths in life that I will now share with you:

1. Your life is hard? So is everyone else's.
2. Your life is not fair? Neither is anyone elses'.
3. Nobody cares.

All of life's outcomes can be tested against these truths. Either in isolation or taken together.

You're absolutely right, as long as we're better off than someone we should never seek improvement, right?