The Merged Maher Arar Thread

[spud]

As per Le Grand Journal with Normand Lester, TQS. My mistake, I ve edited my initial comment and meant RCMP High Officials.

I certainly agree with you, the topic should be locked and this is my last post on this subject.

Why should it be locked?

 

[riggermade]

I'm sure the 37 million of taxpayer dollars that he is affter will make Arar feel better

 

[Blackhorse7]

No need to have done an investigation before, to comment on one. I'll refrain from commenting on your other comments, you may get too offended.

That's quite the statement.  How can you articulate a constructive comment about something unless you have some background in it or some base of knowledge?!?  That's like criticizing a fireman for not putting out a fire quick enough.  Or a paramedic for not doing enough to save a life.  If you haven't done it before, then I suggest you keep your comments to yourself.  And your minimizing things somewhat here.  I said a COMPLEX investigation.  The Arar matter is not quite the same as investigating a shoplifter.  Read the first line of my initial post.

Mistakes were made, atonement has also been made.

How much apology and humility is enough?  There has only been ONE other Commissioner of the RCMP to have ever resigned in the Force's history, and that was to protest government inaction during a crisis.  Mr. Zaccardelli is going to be forever remembered as the Commissioner who left the RCMP under a black cloud of controversy.  Or conversely, he can be remembered as the Commissioner who did the right thing and sacrificed himself to atone for the mistakes made under his command.

 

[spud]

How much apology and humility is enough?  There has only been ONE other Commissioner of the RCMP to have ever resigned in the Force's history, and that was to protest government inaction during a crisis.  Mr. Zaccardelli is going to be forever remembered as the Commissioner who left the RCMP under a black cloud of controversy.  Or conversely, he can be remembered as the Commissioner who did the right thing and sacrificed himself to atone for the mistakes made under his command.

Just because he apologized and quit everyone should drop it? While you seem more concerned with the legacy of Mr. Zaccardelli and his $1100 riding boots, Canadians are looking for accountability.

When an ordinary person appears in court and says they're "correcting earlier mistaken testimony", that's double speak for "I lied before". Unless you're the Commissioner of the RCMP.  :

Funny, we used to listen to Paul Harvey on the radio with "the rest of the story". Before he is absolved for being "so honorable" in the eyes of Canadians, they want to hear "the rest of the story".

 

[Blackhorse7]

You seem to have me confused with someone else.  I'm no fan of Mr. Zaccardelli, I'm simply saying that there is a lot of uninformed opinion being casually thrown about in here which is quite frankly, insulting.  And comments like this,

"When an ordinary person appears in court and says they're "correcting earlier mistaken testimony", that's double speak for "I lied before". Unless you're the Commissioner of the RCMP.  :"

certainly don't help sway my opinion about uninformed opinion.  And your reference to accountability certainly comes out of left field... THE MAN QUIT!  HE LEFT THE FORCE!!  How much more accountability do you want?  There has already been an inquiry, they have already made a report.  You think throwing money at Mr. Arar fixes things?  You don't think there will be a massive undertaking to make sure mistakes like this won't happen again?  That there already is a huge review being conducted as we type?

And I'll point out again, as someone else did earlier, this is not just an RCMP problem.  The government was involved, the US government (who are the ones who deported Mr. Arar), and several other agencies were all involved.  Where's the finger pointing at them?  Why isn't anyone ranting about accountability in those offices? 

So that being said, you tell me Spud.  When DO we drop this?  When DO we move on with our lives?

 

[FGH_Recce_DJ]

It takes alot of courage for a man in the commissioners position to step down, i give the man alot of credit, he took one for the team, unlike officers in a higher chain of command in Winnipegs police service and the whole James Driskell fiasco :

 

[spud]

THE MAN QUIT!  HE LEFT THE FORCE!!  How much more accountability do you want?  There has already been an inquiry, they have already made a report.  You think throwing money at Mr. Arar fixes things?  You don't think there will be a massive undertaking to make sure mistakes like this won't happen again?  That there already is a huge review being conducted as we type?

That he left the force is accountability to some; CYA to others, as he would have been canned anyway. As for the inquiry that happened, he has testified once; now the man just came back and said he was "correcting mistaken testimony". Is that incompetence or good 'ol lying? Any other mistakes out there we should know about? I guess after the huge review we will find out...hopefully.

So that being said, you tell me Spud.  When DO we drop this?  When DO we move on with our lives?

I can move on, I'm neither shocked nor surprised that this happened. But this is bigger then Arar, this has shaken the confidence of parliament and the taxpayers in the RCMP. I guess they'll move on when they are satisfied they have the answers to their questions.

To expect people to move on simply because he "fell on his sword" or "took one for the team" is simplistic and naive. That answer might wash for a hockey coach, but 
people expect a lot more from the Commissioner of our national law enforcement agency.

 

[Yrys]

  How much more accountability do you want? 

What about for starter to tell which of his 2 contradictory statements is right ?
Or what he knows of what happen, why did it happen, etc ?

 

[Fishbone Jones]

I can move on, I'm neither shocked nor surprised that this happened. But this is bigger then Arar, this has shaken the confidence of parliament and the taxpayers in the RCMP. I guess they'll move on when they are satisfied they have the answers to their questions.

My confidence in the Queen's Cowboys has not been shaken, nor diminished.

"Moving now, out!"

 

[GO!!!]

I'd prefer to see questions about Mr. Arar answered before we crucify the commish.

What was the nature of his relationship with Mr. Amalki?

Is there any quantifiable evidence that he was tortured?

What was the US evidence against him?

Considering that he is a dual Syrian/Canadian citizen, what was his objection to being returned to the nation of his birth? He retains their passport for a reason - right?

Maybe I'm too cynical, but I see a person who devoted his whole life to Canadian policing resigning over the possible unfair treatment of a "citizen" of extremely dubious loyalties and even shadier acquaintances.

 

[xmarcx]

Most of these questions are answered in the inquiry report.

What was the nature of his relationship with Mr. Amalki?

He was an acquaintance of Mr. Amalki and met him through his religious community. He was new to Ottawa, needed a cosigner for his lease, and Mr. Amalki agreed. It seems to have been taken for granted that this implied some deeper, suspicious connection.

Is there any quantifiable evidence that he was tortured?

Technically no. Canadian officials did visit him in prison, but did not suspect any specific abuse. However, despite being fluent in English, prison guards were present during all visits and forced him to speak in Arabic, and they translated it to the officials to make sure whatever they were told was sanitized. Personally, I've met a number of people who were tortured in various places around the world, and I've met Mr. Arar, and I believe it. Hard to explain, but he's got a thousand yard stare now that speaks volumes about whatever happened to him while he was in Syria.

What was the US evidence against him?

This is why the RCMP has been singled out as the primary organization responsible for what happened. When CSIS provided their information, there were a number of caveats explaining that all suspicious links were merely possibilities, and that nothing had been proven. When it was provided by the RCMP to the US, those caveats were not included, and the information basically stated that he was confirmed Al-Qaeda.

Considering that he is a dual Syrian/Canadian citizen, what was his objection to being returned to the nation of his birth? He retains their passport for a reason - right?

His family left when he was 17 and before he had served his mandatory military service. Neither of those make Syrians popular in the eyes of their government. Syria also had a lot to gain at the time by playing along with American foreign policy, when a superpower is desperate to find terrorists, and you've been linked to a lot of terrorism, it's only rational to play as much ball as you can until things calm down. Mr. Arar claims while being tortured he was asked for information related to Al-Qaeda, which likely would have been  handed over to the Americans if he had any.

Maybe I'm too cynical, but I see a person who devoted his whole life to Canadian policing resigning over the possible unfair treatment of a "citizen" of extremely dubious loyalties and even shadier acquaintances.

The government launched an inquiry. The inquiry cleared Mr. Arar of all suspicion, and clearly revealed a variety of mistakes, exaggerations, overstatements, and outright lies that when combined with several errors by government & law enforcement officials cost Mr. Arar two years of his life, and perhaps a lifetime of suspicion and disadvantage for him and his entire family.

I don't think Zaccardelli's resignation was necessary or productive, but he seems to have done it selflessly to save face for an organization he dedicated his life to. That is a shame. But to continue to cast aspirations regarding Mr. Arar when in the eyes of our government and our laws, he is a completely innocent man is at best ignorant and at worst reeks of racism. The good guys do make mistakes sometimes, and those mistakes have to be accepted if anything is going to be learned from all the pain and suffering and trouble that they have cost so many people.

 

[GO!!!]

Most of these questions are answered in the inquiry report.
He was an acquaintance of Mr. Amalki and met him through his religious community. He was new to Ottawa, needed a cosigner for his lease, and Mr. Amalki agreed. It seems to have been taken for granted that this implied some deeper, suspicious connection.

BS.

How many people just go and co-sign loans for others who they just met - with no strings attached? Amalki has suspected terrorist ties, and is apparently a kind hearted philanthropist when not plotting the overthrow of the Christian west. Sound fishy?

Technically no. Canadian officials did visit him in prison, but did not suspect any specific abuse. However, despite being fluent in English, prison guards were present during all visits and forced him to speak in Arabic, and they translated it to the officials to make sure whatever they were told was sanitized. Personally, I've met a number of people who were tortured in various places around the world, and I've met Mr. Arar, and I believe it. Hard to explain, but he's got a thousand yard stare now that speaks volumes about whatever happened to him while he was in Syria.

So the answer is no, verified by Canadian officials.

I could simulate a pretty decent thousand yard stare if I was really looking at a cool 39 million at some point in the future.

This is why the RCMP has been singled out as the primary organization responsible for what happened. When CSIS provided their information, there were a number of caveats explaining that all suspicious links were merely possibilities, and that nothing had been proven. When it was provided by the RCMP to the US, those caveats were not included, and the information basically stated that he was confirmed Al-Qaeda.

A grievous procedural error no doubt, if the allegations were proven to be false. To turn this around, the RCMP/CSIS have been unable to prove that Arar is a terrorist - but he has'nt provided much evidence that he is not. If this was subject to a "reverse onus" he would still be in jail.

His family left when he was 17 and before he had served his mandatory military service. Neither of those make Syrians popular in the eyes of their government. Syria also had a lot to gain at the time by playing along with American foreign policy, when a superpower is desperate to find terrorists, and you've been linked to a lot of terrorism, it's only rational to play as much ball as you can until things calm down. Mr. Arar claims while being tortured he was asked for information related to Al-Qaeda, which likely would have been  handed over to the Americans if he had any.

So Arar shirked his obligation as a Syrian citizen, and they punished him for it - my heart bleeds. Everything else in this paragraph is  unproveable speculation.

The government launched an inquiry. The inquiry cleared Mr. Arar of all suspicion, and clearly revealed a variety of mistakes, exaggerations, overstatements, and outright lies that when combined with several errors by government & law enforcement officials cost Mr. Arar two years of his life, and perhaps a lifetime of suspicion and disadvantage for him and his entire family.

....all of which could have been avoided if he had clarified a few questions when he began behaving erratically before leaving the country after a series of meetins with other suspected terrorists.

I noticed that you conveniently neglected to answer my last question - why did Arar maintain his Syrian citizenship if he believed that he could be persecuted upon his return there? Had he been the Canadian he claims to be, he never would have been deported from the US, as his citizenship would have been here.

No, I see the Arar case as an example of a migrant who thought he could use our liberal system against us, believing that he was immune from investigation or prosecution by the requirement for a large burden of evidence against him. He lost, and was sent home, unfortunately though, the procedures were incorrect.

In the future, we should have mechanisms in place for the deportation of dual citizens suspected of terrorism back to their nations of origin - that would be an excellent legacy for him.

 

[FGH_Recce_DJ]

Alot of good points GO. alot of good points, it really makes you think doesn't it? I think all this guy wants is his 15 minutes of fame and his money he could care less about anything else, who REALLY knows if he was tortured, has it ever been proven?

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

In the future, we should have mechanisms in place for the deportation of dual citizens suspected of terrorism back to their nations of origin - that would be an excellent legacy for him.

As in "Oh no, I've getting Arar'ed". :crybaby:


Totally agree with GO!!, I think the Intel people's hands are tied as to what REALLY can become public.
Syria, along with thier very good friends, knew exactly what they were doing by letting him come back.........money can't buy this kind of propaganda.

 

[xmarcx]

How many people just go and co-sign loans for others who they just met - with no strings attached? Amalki has suspected terrorist ties, and is apparently a kind hearted philanthropist when not plotting the overthrow of the Christian west. Sound fishy?

It wasn't a loan, it was a lease. And you're thinking of what it would be like if you or I went to rent a house. In the intelligence world they call that mirror-imaging, making sense of things from our perspective without considering the perspective and context of your subject. If I need a co-signer or a reference for an apartment, I'll ask a parent or friend, because I've lived in Canada my whole life. In those terms, sure, he might have picked his best buddy from Terrorism 1000 at Jihad-U to be his cosigner. In reality, as an immigrant, he was stuck. He was new to the city, couldn't get an apartment without a cosigner, and someone at a mosque probably said, that guy is trustworthy. If the choice is between not having a roof for your wife and kids, and taking a chance with a stranger, he obviously took a chance. It was a bad call but doesn't prove anything about him except that he was stuck.

I could simulate a pretty decent thousand yard stare if I was really looking at a cool 39 million at some point in the future.
A grievous procedural error no doubt, if the allegations were proven to be false. To turn this around, the RCMP/CSIS have been unable to prove that Arar is a terrorist - but he has'nt provided much evidence that he is not. If this was subject to a "reverse onus" he would still be in jail.

Now that is ridiculous. The law in Canada says INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY. No one, at all, ever, in our society has to prove they AREN'T a criminal. There are half a dozen people in the country who have been sitting in jail for years on secret Security Certificates because CSIS/RCMP has evidence on them. If they had any evidence on Mr. Arar, he'd be sitting there with him. They never had anything more than basic speculation, otherwise they would have picked him up in Canada. The allegations HAVE been proven to be false by Justice O'Connor, who is definitely the SME on the issue. If you know something he doesn't, and have some evidence that CSIS never did, you are in the wrong line of work.

....all of which could have been avoided if he had clarified a few questions when he began behaving erratically before leaving the country after a series of meetins with other suspected terrorists.

The RCMP asked for an interview to ask him questions. Mr. Arar, coming from a country where the police aren't the good guys, got a lawyer. The lawyer asked for some conditions to protect his client, the RCMP decided it wasn't worth it and chose not to schedule the interview.

I noticed that you conveniently neglected to answer my last question - why did Arar maintain his Syrian citizenship if he believed that he could be persecuted upon his return there? Had he been the Canadian he claims to be, he never would have been deported from the US, as his citizenship would have been here.

You're right, I have no idea about that. But he was living and working in Canada, and was seized by the US returning to Canada because his bosses need him for a consulting job. It's worth noting that this is the first time the US has performed an extraordinary rendition of a Canadian citizen, there was no precedent for this and if the Canadian government had evidence he was a terrorist, he should have been sent back to answer for it in a court of law.

No, I see the Arar case as an example of a migrant who thought he could use our liberal system against us, believing that he was immune from investigation or prosecution by the requirement for a large burden of evidence against him. He lost, and was sent home, unfortunately though, the procedures were incorrect.

A migrant? He moved here as a teenager. He went to school here, he got married here, he had two Canadian citizen children here, he paid taxes here, and he contributed to the Canadian economy. How did he abuse our system? Someone screwed up and told the United States that he was an Al Qaeda terrorist and they ruined his life for it. He was willing to talk to police but wanted a lawyer, a right of any Canadian, because in the wake of 9/11 he was worried about his rights. The police decided not to bother, not him. 

CSIS and the RCMP have procedures and means to arrest people even with the vaguest of evidence if they feel the individual is a threat to national security, and they have taken that option before and after Mr. Arar was deported. If they had something on him, if he was even remotely suspicious, they would have taken it. Just because he knew suspicious people doesn't mean a damn thing. Two guys I went to highschool with got busted for child porn, and a guy I went to elementry school with even killed a guy. Should I be going to jail for my association with these dangerous criminals? Clearly not, and no one is asking me to prove I'm not a paedophilic murderer. Why is it different when your name is Arabic instead of Irish?

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Quotes,
In reality, as an immigrant, he was stuck.

A migrant? He moved here as a teenager. He went to school here, he got married here, he had two Canadian citizen children here, he paid taxes here,

Holy WTF, Batman.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

...and to prove how stupid your argument is on being locked up on "the vaguest of evidence", there was a funeral yesterday for a full-patch Hells Angel.......nobody got arrested for suspicion of dealing drugs though.

 

[xmarcx]

Quotes,
In reality, as an immigrant, he was stuck.

A migrant? He moved here as a teenager. He went to school here, he got married here, he had two Canadian citizen children here, he paid taxes here,

Holy WTF, Batman.

Immigrant and migrant are two different things. I assumed it was a meaningful and intentional distinction. He wasn't just movin' on through Canada, he chose to make it his home and join our society.

As to the Hell's Angels thing, that has nothing to do with it. Do some research on Security Certificates. They can arrest and hold people without charges on secret evidence that doesn't even need to be revealed to the suspect. If Arar was guilty of something, CSIS & the RCMP would have taken it to a judge, in secret, and got a certificate issed, and arrested him. They didn't.

You can dogpile me all you want, but what I'm saying is all backed up by the O'Connor report and accepted by the government and the relevant insitutions. You're arguing that a man is likely a terrorist when it has been proven in an open and legal inquiry that there is absolutely no evidence he is, and what evidence was claimed was false.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Warren Commission

 

[xmarcx]

Warren Commission

Oh, yes, there have been poorly run government inquiries in the past, but that doesn't mean that your gut feeling is right. You're saying that Justice O'Connor is wrong, his inquiry is wrong, CSIS is wrong, the RCMP is wrong, Parliament is wrong, even Zaccardelli is wrong, because they've all accepted this and apolgized for what happened.

I guess I'm going to owe you guys every single beer left in the country after Arar launches his long-planned devestating terrorist attack.