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The Great Gun Control Debate

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The context is the very substance here,.................I will assume you don't have a ban and I'm sure if your kid had drawn that picture nothing would become of it.

I wonder how everyone here would react if all the parties involved just ignored this and he blew away whomever it was he assaulted 5 years ago??
Oh yea, the cops would have "crapped the bed" again..............
 
I think the point has been muddied here. He was arrested and charged with possession of a weapon... based on a child's drawing. He wasn't in possession of a weapon when he was arrested though. Nor was he in possession of a weapon after a search.
 
I didn't say the cops crapped the bed I said someone crapped the bed. Once they're called they have to respond but did they need to be called in the first place?
 
ModlrMike said:
based on a child's drawing. 

Try reading the Guelph Mercury link...........it was what she said the initiated it.  The drawing just makes the story sound good to the moron masses.
 
National Post -

http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2012/02/24/matt-gurney-police-arrest-and-stripsearch-innocent-man-after-child-doodles-a-gun/

"Everyone involved in this debacle would obviously concede that it shouldn’t have gone this way. But as long as every party involved in wronging Sansone and his family continue to claim that they did everything correctly and by the book, they are essentially admitting that given a comparable situation on some other occasion, another innocent man or woman is going to be arrested, stripped, thrown into a cell and have their kids removed from them. That’s not acceptable. It’s long been the case that gun owners, or even rumoured potential gun owners, are viewed as threats to society by default in this country. But Sansone’s experience is not about general cultural sentiment, but established procedures used by civil servants. The schools, Family Services and police all owe Sansone, his wife and their children an apology, and owe every citizen a commitment that they will never again act so rashly."

 
Bruce Monkhouse said:
Try reading the Guelph Mercury link...........it was what she said the initiated it.  The drawing just makes the story sound good to the moron masses.

The article says:

They also said comments by Sansone's daughter, Neaveh, that the man holding the gun in the picture was her dad and "he uses it to shoot bad guys and monsters," was concerning.

So what you're saying is if your kid has an imagination, that is grounds to arrest you, search your home and bring your children in for interrogation?
 
Bruce Monkhouse said:
Maybe they might if you have a firearms ban,......doorknob.

Okay, I caught the part about the father having previous criminal convictions, but I didn't see anything about a firearms ban.
 
Lets see, he was never charged, he consented to the search of his house, based on previous convictions [that we KNOW about] he would have more than likely had a ban,........now what we don't know,...has Children's Services been there before? Hmm,.......nope the Cops must be wrong.




Yea folks,...next a 4 year old says "someone touched me here", just ignore it...

I'm done here,...........carry on with the cruxifiction.
 
OK note to self do not buy the new Zombie killer game as my 4yo may talk about it at school and some idiot may over hear he telling others about how many zombies I killed. to a laymen like me that's what is sounds like "bad guys and monsters"

No disrespect to the cops but some one dropped all common sense on this one.
 
Bruce Monkhouse said:
Yea folks,...next a 4 year old says "someone touched me here", just ignore it...

You're really grasping at straws here.. Any reasonable person can see how over the top this whole episode is.. The police are often crucified, to use your term, without reason.. But that does not mean they are perfect. Mistakes happen, and in this case some very major mistakes happened.

Yea folks,... when the police drag me from my home and arrest me without telling me why or using an ounce of common sense just ignore it...

Fixed that for you.
 
There's also the legacy of him having a "possession of weapon" arrest attached to his name anytime it gets run by police.
 
My 6 year old proudly tells people that I shoot bad guys and monsters.



I wonder how damaging it was to the kid to be taken into CAS's custody.

School teacher over reacted. CAS jumped the gun. Police were disproportionate.
 
Bruce Monkhouse said:
Just the drawing?

The detective told him that his four-year-old daughter had drawn a picture of a man holding a gun. When a teacher asked her who the man was, the girl replied, “That’s my daddy’s. He uses it to shoot bad guys and monsters.”
Maybe going out on a limb here....

I am a LEO that is a member of a firearms investigation unit that would have been tasked to investigate a situation like this. I know nothing more than the newspaper article, but I can confidently say there is a lot more to this case than what is written. I would suggest Mr. Sansone is well known to the police and probably has a history of being involved with criminal firearms related activities.

Bruce Monkhouse said:
Well now,.......yup, because people who would break into your house and/or assault you are such fine outstanding citizens.
The anti-law enforcement bias on this site rears it's ugly head once again.  But hey, lets just go to the thread about the latest of a long line of military folks who have now been charged with kiddie porn and bend over backwards to say "well lets wait until the facts come out."
.
Like Bruce has said the anti-law enforcement bias is quite prevalent on this site. Very quick to protect and "shield" a member of the CF doing wrong, but when the police do something questionable or without the complete story there is a long line to vilify.
 
WR said:
Like Bruce has said the anti-law enforcement bias is quite prevalent on this site. Very quick to protect and "shield" a member of the CF doing wrong, but when the police do something questionable or without the complete story there is a long line to vilify.

Disagree. When members of the CF come under fire for doing something stupid members here don't protect and shield said members. If anything they're fairly harsh in their views of the offending member to the point where the mods have to keep chiming in.

I haven't seen LEOs in the news treated much differently.  If it looks like the LEO is being unfairly accused then the members here more often than not rally around their defense. When it looks like LEOs shit the bed the members treat them the same way they do CF members- you're held to a higher standard so the punishment should likewise be raised up.

Just my observations.
 
Here's the problem.

This is not a one off. The past record of the person had nothing to do with it.

He's simply the last, in a long line of people that are unfairly dragged through the system on the say so of any individual, whether that be a child, a nosey neighbor, or a misguided 'do gooder' who has no grasp of the situation and just happens to be driving by.

People have been arrested and had their guns seized simply because someone saw them putting them in their car or truck to go to the range.

One person who was legally hunting returned home to squad cars, a swat team and his wife being held without her medication. He was then arrested, stripsearched on his front lawn in front of his neighbors before being carted off to jail. He had been lawfully hunting, but somebody took his car license number and reported a man with a gun.

One only has to look, or google or go to gun nutz to read the myriad of stories where the police react way over the top, harm lawful citizens and their property and all on the say so of someone that doesn't even know WTF is going on.

In their defence, they often site public safety. They may have a point, but once the threat (gun) has been removed, cooler heads should prevail and get the bottom line before going all medieval on someone's ass.



Sorry Bruce, but your wrong. Your reasoning does not even fit the argument and trying to draw parallels with pedophiles and gun owners is reprehensible, childish and proves your naivety on the subject.

The cops were out of line, as were the teachers and family services
 
“From a public safety point of view, any child drawing a picture of guns and saying there’s guns in a home would warrant some further conversation with the parents and child,” said Alison Scott, executive director of Family and Children’s Services.

But, they didn't do that. They decided right away to call the cops. Now, if the girl had said something about guns laying around the house in an unsafe manner, then yes, that would be a matter of concern. However, according to the article the only reason the CAS and police got involved was because the girl drew a picture of a figure with a gun and when questioned she said, "That’s my daddy’s. He uses it to shoot bad guys and monsters.”  The addition of "and monsters" could indicate that she has a healthy imagination, or that her daddy plays role playing games on the computer, a not-on-heard of possibility in this day and age. All they had to do was to sit down with the girl and her parents and sort it out. But, no, everyone panicked and went batsh*t crazy.

A final comment, yes, there may be more info that we don't know, but note that the concerned parties (father, school principle, CAS and police) were interviewed in the Guelph-Mercury article and they made no additional comments.
 
Retired AF Guy said:
But, they didn't do that. They decided right away to call the cops.

I said I was done but can't resist this easy one.


READ BETWEEN THE FUCKIN' LINES PEOPLE!!!! ::)
 
There are enough documented cases of police over-reactions, including cases where there was no criminal history.

Jonathan Login is a classic case.: http://www.cdnshootingsports.org/JonathanLogan200603.html

I routinely drove through Baxter on my way to and from Borden daily. I was going home one afternoon while this was still simmering in the local media and courts but was no longer major news, via our babysitter's house in Barrie. For a little variety and because it was a convenient route to her place, I took backroads.  Unnoticed by me, an isolated stretch dropped to 50 from 80 for no logical reason, and I missed the sign. Two OPP constables leapt from the bushes, and directed me into a gravelled area in the trees. There were a couple of other cars who'd been pulled in as well. I was surprised to be told that I was speeding, when I was doing 70 in what I thought was an 80 zone. I apologized, and expected to be let off with a warning, especially as I was wearing my flying suit. The female constable interrogated me at some length, asking me why I was driving along that route, and pushing me to admit that I was coming from Wolf's Den. I've never been there, and was not very sure where it was. Her attitude, especially as I was in uniform, baffled me. Receiving the ticket was also a surprise, but I was not going to make a fuss.

As I continued on my way, I realized that she was probably clueless and did not even recognize my uniform,  mistaking it as hunting clothing. I still believe that it is highly probable that this was a traffic ambush to harass Wolf's Den customers during the fund-raising efforts. There was no other reason that I can see to spend time like that out in the middle of nowhere, when there were more highly-travelled routes around that would generate more income.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-20025657-504083.html

http://articles.businessinsider.com/2011-08-16/europe/30052167_1_essex-police-social-media-youths

http://www.independentsentinel.com/2011/11/armed-police-a-toy-gun/

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1135179/Armed-police-arrest-man-playfully-pointing-toy-ray-gun-baby.html

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-20100289-504083.html

I've been trying to find a couple of better examples of Canadian police over-reactions that have featured in the news. I'll have do a more detailed search later.

When I was a child, every boy had at least one cap gun, and could freely play with it outside his house and on the street with a bunch of similarly-armed friends with no fear of being surrounded by a black-clad tactical team with real weapons, forced to the ground, cuffed, and tossed in the back of a police car.

One fatal shooting in Woodstock, Ontario sometime in the 1980s comes to mind. An OPP TRU team went to the wrong address very late one night to conduct an arrest. I do not recall the reason. The house was surrounded, and the TRU team was dressed in camouflaged clothing. The homeowner was awakened from outside the house, but the TRU team did not clearly identify themselves as police. The homeowner, who had been drinking earlier, believed that he was being threatened by thugs and went outside with a rifle. The situation ended with the homeowner dead and at least one OPP member wounded. They had gone to the wrong house. The intended target was the one next door. Oops.

In most over-reaction cases, a simple polite knock on the door and a chat - during daylight hours so that the interviewee would be less dazed and confused and feel less threatened - would establish what had really happened and avoided needless tragedy or mental trauma.

In many cases, such as the Login one, there is clearly no threat to the police who are responding.

Police make mistakes, including major over-reactions. They are not right all of the time.

http://www.cdnshootingsports.org/2010/05/CSSA_Release-Police_Relations_Survey_20100527.html

The mistrust has been well earned. I understand it. I feel the same way, even though I should not, as I posted earlier.

The whole act has to go, the stigmatization needs to end and be reversed, and the police have to re-learn that calm and good manners will save lives and alienation and that honest citizens who used to be their biggest supporters should neither be viewed as easy pickings nor as the enemy.
 
Worth reading, and considering in detail: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peelian_Principles

And still perfectly valid.
 
I'm not exactly sure why this is in the gun control thread to be honest.

The article Bruce posted a link to indicates that they acted on more than just the drawing but also by some comments the child made.

He gets hauled in.  It does not seem like he was roughed up or anything, but questioned.  They probably handled him a bit differently because of his past.  CAS does its job and talks to the kids and wife.  Once everything is on the up and up they are all released and apologies are made.  Why is this such a big issue?  Due dilligence seems to have been followed even though it may seem a bit excessive.  Heck, they could have stormed the house with swat team at night while they slept but they didn't do that.

As for teh anti-leo stuff people seem to perceive here, I disagree.  look at the thread about the mountie getting slandered out west by a journalist.  Most people here supported the cops' actions in that one. And we certainly do not always defend our own.  Gen menard, col. Williams etc etc have all been rightly villified here.

The whole story seems excessive yes, but people's indignation at what seems to have been proceduraly correct is as well.
 
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