• Thanks for stopping by. Logging in to a registered account will remove all generic ads. Please reach out with any questions or concerns.

The Great Gun Control Debate

Status
Not open for further replies.
>You mean the undercover fascist regime aiming to take away guns from farmers/hunters? With all of the nazi comparisons this is the best I could come up with.

Leaving aside the juvenile Godwinism, it's not a trade secret that people with agendas - and in particular those who broadly self-label as "progressives" - methodically work to achieve change one step at a time, aka boiling the frog.  It is not always true that B must follow from A, but it is commonly enough observed in practice that a succession of gradual changes can desensitize people to the unintended consequences both predicted and unforeseen.  The crowning stupidity and insult is when advocates of change adopt the problems of their own creation as excuses for more meddling.

On this particular issue, enough prominent people have shot off their yaps about the desire to disarm people entirely that to claim there is no slippery slope to complete disarmament holds no weight whatsoever.  And as to that eventuality, I present three observations of historical fact:
1) Governments can be co-opted by malicious forces very quickly and unpredictably.
2) Disarmed populaces have been brutally abused by malicious governments.
3) We are not magically immune to the problems which have befallen others.
 
Leaving aside the juvenile Godwinism, it's not a trade secret that people with agendas - and in particular those who broadly self-label as "progressives" - methodically work to achieve change one step at a time, aka boiling the frog.  It is not always true that B must follow from A, but it is commonly enough observed in practice that a succession of gradual changes can desensitize people to the unintended consequences both predicted and unforeseen.  The crowning stupidity and insult is when advocates of change adopt the problems of their own creation as excuses for more meddling.

Yeah, I happened to join the Freemason's, but I was really dissapointed when I found out they didn't want to take over the world so I opted for progressive instead.

1) Governments can be co-opted by malicious forces very quickly and unpredictably.

I haven't seen that happen in Japan, Australia, or Great Britian yet.

2) Disarmed populaces have been brutally abused by malicious governments.

No, we just don't see the point in giving people with a history of mental illness weapons.

3) We are not magically immune to the problems which have befallen others.

Domestic violence?

You really don't get it do you?

I do, that's why I think drug dealers and drug users shouldn't be able to legally buy a weapon.

How much time and money goes into treating overdoses or addiction? Quite a bit I would suspect.

What about gunshot wounds?

As for not hurting anyone, you think that people don't get hopped up and drive?

I've seen people get angry when they drive, that's why I don't think they should have a handgun close by for "protection".

Almost 2 million arrests for drug abuse violations which was more than drinking and driving arrests. In the same year (2005), there were not quite 400,000 crimes committed with firearms in the US, by my math, drugs are at the root of the problem 5 times more often than guns. Victimless my ***.

If only we could match up, imagine how much better this country would be.
 
Sigs Guy said:
Yeah, I happened to join the Freemason's, but I was really dissapointed when I found out they didn't want to take over the world so I opted for progressive instead.

I haven't seen that happen in Japan, Australia, or Great Britian yet.

No, we just don't see the point in giving people with a history of mental illness weapons.

Domestic violence?

Maybe I can make this a little clearer than the last time. Quit the trolling and smart assed comments. Feel free to stay in this serious discussion, but try to answer the questions posed to you and back them with research links and facts. Not your limited 20 year old life experience and high school attitude.
 
Sigs Guy said:
Actually, firearms proliferation does cause a burden on the healthcare system. As for drugs, if your not hurting anyone you should be able to do whatever you want correct?

I'm jumping back in on this thread. You sir are full of it. Firearms causing more of a burden on the health care system than drugs? Drugs being a choice is exempt from being a burden? Do you even read what you are typing?

I've got a messed up relative. He's got several mental illnesses. He's prohibited from ever using a firearm. He's a frequent flyer with the paramedics. He has almost a quarter million dollars in ambulance rides over the past decade or so. I'm not joking. I've seen printouts from pharmacies that he's had with 10's of thousands of dollars in medications per pharmacy (yes, more than one).

But wait, those tax dollars spent on him for his drug addictions are his choice and that's ok... right? Wrong. I'm willing to bet that himself alone has received more wasted tax dollars to help fuel his addiction(yes fuel) than every firearms related medical issue in this province.. heck if not half of Canada.

My point? You have no idea what you're talking about.

And, I don't mean to stray this topic off the Great Gun Control Debate topic, but having this come from a member of the Canadian Military
Sigs Guy said:
As for drugs, if your not hurting anyone you should be able to do whatever you want correct?
isn't professional at all, and is hurting the Canadian Forces image.
 
Sigs Guy,

After much reading and discussion by the DS you are trolling.

You are now on the ramp without a chute.....

The Army.ca Staff
 
http://www.hcs.harvard.edu/~epihc/currentissue/Fall2001/cook.htm

Maybe I can make this a little clearer than the last time. Quit the trolling and smart assed comments.

Sheep and wolves?

Not your limited 20 year old life experience and high school attitude.

I know many people who don't feel the need to carry around a handgun all the time that are much older than me.

I'm jumping back in on this thread. You sir are full of it. Firearms causing more of a burden on the health care system than drugs? Drugs being a choice is exempt from being a burden? Do you even read what you are typing?

Yes, do you?

I've got a messed up relative. He's got several mental illnesses. He's prohibited from ever using a firearm. He's a frequent flyer with the paramedics. He has almost a quarter million dollars in ambulance rides over the past decade or so. I'm not joking. I've seen printouts from pharmacies that he's had with 10's of thousands of dollars in medications per pharmacy (yes, more than one).

So should he get a gun?

But wait, those tax dollars spent on him for his drug addictions are his choice and that's ok... right? Wrong. I'm willing to bet that himself alone has received more wasted tax dollars to help fuel his addiction(yes fuel) than every firearms related medical issue in this province.. heck if not half of Canada.

I'd rather have money spent trying to defeat addiction instead of lax firearms laws which could result in a death. Ever hear of that massacre in Australia?

My point? You have no idea what you're talking about.

Neither do you, and I believe I've seen you on a seperate forum sprouting the same nonsense.

And, I don't mean to stray this topic off the Great Gun Control Debate topic, but having this come from a member of the Canadian Military

Get a grip on yourself mate.

isn't professional at all, and is hurting the Canadian Forces image.

I've never done drugs once there stewart, and my point was the idiocy in the idea that we should be allowed to do whatever we want as long as its not hurting anyone else.

After much reading and discussion by the DS you are trolling.

How so? PM
 
Sigs Guy said:
http://www.hcs.harvard.edu/~epihc/currentissue/Fall2001/cook.htm

Sheep and wolves?

No. I am what I appear to be; but heck ... I'll bite onto your bait.

Welcome to the Milnet.ca Warning System.

ArmyVern
The Milnet.ca Staff
 
The problem here Sigs is that it sounds like you think we're trying to say that guns should be easier to get, given to everyone, guns guns everywhere! That's not what this is about. It's not even so much about CCW, it's about the fact that we'd like citizens to continue being allowed to have them, legally. And that law abiding gun owners should not be hassled like they are, save that crap for the criminals.

That about the jist of it?
 
Well I'll be a...What the...Huh?  You just boiled 59 pages down to that?  I want all those hours spent reading this thread back!  >:(
 
So people are pissed off about having to do a course and fill out some paperwork?

I did that course and filled out the paperwork and it really wasn't that terrible. As for the government restricting some guns, I don't really care some types of guns don't need or better yet shouldn't be available to the civilian population. I think that when the biggest champion of gun rights is a guy that advocates arming girls in grade 8, it kind of makes me question what kind of society they really want.
 
Sigs Guy said:
So people are pissed off about having to do a course and fill out some paperwork?

huh, where did you get that from ?
 
Sigs Guy said:
So people are pissed off about having to do a course and fill out some paperwork?

So you pretty much just went on ignoring what people are actually saying, put words in their mouth and spout your rhetoric?

No, we're not pissed off about taking courses or doing paperwork, bring it on! Just don't hassle us after we've jumped through your hoops! But this IS Canada, where we grief those who follow the rules, and give freebies to those who don't...

edit: typos... don't have firefox 2 on this box so no auto-spell check :(
 
So should he get a gun?
Did you not read? He's prohibited from owning firearms. We're certainly not arguing with that.

I'd rather have money spent trying to defeat addiction instead of lax firearms laws which could result in a death. Ever hear of that massacre in Australia?
What in the name of (for lack of a more popular word) blue blazes are you talking about? Who said anything about lax firearms laws resulting in death? Austrailia massacres? Are you on drugs?

Neither do you, and I believe I've seen you on a seperate forum sprouting the same nonsense.
Ok so all of what I said is false and everyone that's been trying to help lead you down a more correct path is wrong?

Get a grip on yourself mate.
I'm not your mate.

Is it coincidence that everyone's jumping on your posts? Just click the preview button before you make your next post. If you question the contents within or the context it's presented in, delete it and say nothing.
 
Fry said:
Is it coincidence that everyone's jumping on your posts? Just click the preview button before you make your next post. If you question the contents within or the context it's presented in, delete it and say nothing.

He doesn't and therein lies the frustration.
 
Seeing as Sheep & Wolves was brought up:

ON SHEEP, WOLVES, AND SHEEPDOGS

By Lt.Col. (ret.) Dave Grossman, Army Ranger, psychology professor, author of "On Killing" and  "On Combat".

"Honor never grows old, and honor rejoices the heart of age. It does so because honor is, finally, about defending those noble and worthy  things that deserve defending, even if it comes at a high cost. In our time, that may mean social disapproval, public scorn, hardship, persecution, or as always, even death itself. The question remains: What is worth defending? What is worth dying for? What is worth living for?" - William J. Bennett - in a lecture to the United States Naval Academy November 24, 1997

______________________________________________________________________________________



One Vietnam veteran, an old retired colonel, once said this to me:  "Most of the people in our society are sheep. They are kind, gentle, productive creatures who can only hurt one another by accident." This is true. Remember, the murder rate is six per 100,000 per year, and the aggravated assault rate is four per 1,000 per year. What this means is that the vast majority of Americans are not inclined to hurt one another.

Some estimates say that two million Americans are victims of violent crimes every year, a tragic, staggering number, perhaps an all-time record rate of violent crime. But there are almost 300 million Americans, which  means that the odds of being a victim of violent crime is considerably less than one  in a hundred on any given year. Furthermore, since many violent crimes are committed by repeat offenders, the actual number of violent citizens is considerably less than two million.

Thus there is a paradox, and we must grasp both ends of the situation: We may well be in the most violent times in history, but violence is still remarkably rare. This is because most citizens are kind, decent people who are not capable of hurting each other, except by accident or under extreme provocation. They are sheep.

I mean nothing negative by calling them sheep. To me it is like the pretty, blue robin's egg. Inside it is soft and gooey but someday it will grow into something wonderful. But the egg cannot survive without its hard blue shell. Police officers, soldiers, and other warriors are like that shell, and
someday the civilization they protect will grow into something wonderful. For now, though, they need warriors to protect them from the predators.

"Then there are the wolves," the old war veteran said, "and the wolves feed on the sheep without mercy." Do you believe there are wolves out there who will feed on the flock without mercy? You better believe it. There are evil men in this world and they are capable of evil deeds. The moment you forget that or pretend it is not so, you become a sheep. There is no safety in denial.

"Then there are sheepdogs," he went on, "and I'm a sheepdog. I live to protect the flock and confront the wolf."

If you have no capacity for violence then you are a healthy productive citizen, a sheep. If you have a capacity for violence and no empathy for your fellow citizens, then you have defined an aggressive sociopath, a wolf. But what if you have a capacity for violence, and a deep love for your fellow citizens? What do you have then? A sheepdog, a warrior, someone who is walking the hero's path. Someone who can walk into the heart of darkness, into the universal human phobia, and walk out unscathed

Let me expand on this old soldier's excellent model of the sheep, wolves, and sheepdogs. We know that the sheep live in denial, that is what makes them sheep. They do not want to believe that there is evil in the world. They can accept the fact that fires can happen, which is why they want fire extinguishers, fire sprinklers, fire alarms and fire exits throughout their kids' schools.

But many of them are outraged at the idea of putting an armed police officer in their kid's school. Our children are thousands of times more likely to be killed or seriously injured by school violence than fire, but the sheep's only response to the possibility of violence is denial. The idea of someone coming to kill or harm their child is just too hard, and so they chose the  path of denial.

The sheep generally do not like the sheepdog. He looks a lot like the wolf. He has fangs and the capacity for violence. The difference, though, is that the sheepdog must not, can not and will not ever harm the sheep. Any sheep dog who intentionally harms the lowliest little lamb will be punished and removed. The world cannot work any other way, at least not in a representative democracy or a republic such as ours.

Still, the sheepdog disturbs the sheep. He is a constant reminder that there are wolves in the land. They would prefer that he didn't tell them where to go, or give them traffic tickets, or stand at the ready in our airports in camouflage fatigues holding an M-16. The sheep would much rather have the sheepdog cash in his fangs, spray paint himself white, and go, "Baa."

Until the wolf shows up. Then the entire flock tries desperately to hide behind one lonely sheepdog.

The students, the victims, at Columbine High School were big, tough high school students, and under ordinary circumstances they would not have had the time of day for a police officer. They were not bad kids; they just had nothing to say to a cop. When the school was under attack, however, and SWAT teams were clearing the rooms and hallways, the officers had to physically peel those clinging, sobbing kids off of them. This is how the little lambs feel about their sheepdog when the wolf is at the door.

Look at what happened after September 11, 2001 when the wolf pounded hard on the door. Remember how America, more than ever before, felt differently about their law enforcement officers and military personnel? Remember how many times you heard the word 'hero'?

Understand that there is nothing morally superior about being a sheepdog; it is just what you choose to be. Also understand that a sheepdog is a funny critter: He is always sniffing around out on the perimeter, checking the breeze, barking at things that go bump in the night, and yearning for a righteous battle. That is, the young sheepdogs yearn for a righteous battle. The old sheepdogs are a little older and wiser, but they move to the sound of the guns when needed right along with the young ones.

Here is how the sheep and the sheepdog think differently. The sheep pretend the wolf will never come, but the sheepdog lives for that day. After the attacks on September 11, 2001, most of the sheep, that is, most citizens in America said, "Thank God I wasn't on one of those planes." The sheepdogs, the warriors, said, "Dear God, I wish I could have been on one of those planes. Maybe I could have made a difference." When you are truly transformed into a warrior and have truly invested yourself into warriorhood, you want to be there. You want to be able to make a difference.

There is nothing morally superior about the sheepdog--the warrior--but he does have one real advantage. Only one. And that is that he is able to survive and thrive in an environment that destroys 98 percent of the population.



There was research conducted a few years ago with individuals convicted of violent crimes. These cons were in prison for serious, predatory crimes of violence: assaults, murders and killing law enforcement officers. The vast majority said that they specifically targeted victims by body language: slumped walk, passive behavior and lack of awareness. They chose their victims like
big cats do in Africa, when they select one out of the herd that is least able to protect itself.

Some people may be destined to be sheep and others might be genetically primed to be wolves or sheepdogs. But I believe that most people can choose which one they want to be, and I'm proud to say that more and more Americans are choosing to become sheepdogs.

Seven months after the attack on September 11, 2001, Todd Beamer was honored in his hometown of Cranbury, New Jersey. Todd, as you recall, was the man on Flight 93 over Pennsylvania who called on his cell phone to alert an operator from United Airlines about the hijacking. When he learned of the other three passenger planes that had been used as weapons, Todd dropped his phone and uttered the words, "Let's roll," which authorities believe was a signal to the other passengers to confront the terrorist hijackers. In one hour, a transformation occurred among the passengers - athletes, business people and parents. -- from sheep to sheepdogs and together they fought the wolves, ultimately saving an unknown number of lives on the ground.

There is no safety for honest men except by believing all possible evil of evil men. - Edmund Burke

Here is the point I like to emphasize, especially to the thousands of police officers and soldiers I speak to each year. In nature the sheep, real sheep, are born as sheep. Sheepdogs are born that way, and so are wolves.  They didn't have a choice. But you are not a critter. As a human being, you can be whatever you want to be. It is a conscious, moral decision.

If you want to be a sheep, then you can be a sheep and that is okay, but you must understand the price you pay. When the wolf comes, you and your loved ones are going to die if there is not a sheepdog there to protect you. If you want to be a wolf, you can be one, but the sheepdogs are going to hunt you down and you will never have rest, safety, trust or love. But if you want to be a sheepdog and walk the warrior's path, then you must make a conscious and moral decision every day to dedicate, equip and prepare yourself to thrive in that toxic, corrosive moment when the wolf comes knocking at the door.

For example, many officers carry their weapons in church. They are well concealed in ankle holsters, shoulder holsters or inside-the-belt holsters tucked into the small of their backs. Anytime you go to some form of religious service, there is a very good chance that a police officer in your congregation is carrying. You will never know if there is such an individual in your place of worship, until the wolf appears to massacre you and your loved ones.

I was training a group of police officers in Texas, and during the break, one officer asked his friend if he carried his weapon in church. The other cop replied, "I will never be caught without my gun in church." I asked why he felt so strongly about this, and he told me about a cop he knew who was at a church massacre in Ft. Worth, Texas in 1999. In that incident, a mentally deranged individual came into the church and opened fire, gunning down fourteen people. He said that officer believed he could have saved every life that day if he had been carrying his gun. His own son was shot, and all he could do was throw himself on the boy's body and wait to die. That cop looked me in the eye and said, "Do you have any idea how hard it would be to live with yourself after that?"

Some individuals would be horrified if they knew this police officer was carrying a weapon in church. They might call him paranoid and would probably scorn him. Yet these same individuals would be enraged and would call for "heads to roll" if they found out that the airbags in their cars were defective, or that the fire extinguisher and fire sprinklers in their kids' school did not work. They can accept the fact that fires and traffic accidents can happen and that there must be safeguards against them.

Their only response to the wolf, though, is denial, and all too often their response to the sheepdog is scorn and disdain. But the sheepdog quietly asks himself, "Do you have and idea how hard it would be to live with yourself if your loved ones were attacked and killed, and you had to stand there helplessly because you were unprepared for that day?"

It is denial that turns people into sheep. Sheep are psychologically destroyed by combat because their only defense is denial, which is counterproductive and destructive, resulting in fear, helplessness and horror when the wolf shows up.

Denial kills you twice. It kills you once, at your moment of truth when you are not physically prepared: you didn't bring your gun, you didn't train. Your only defense was wishful thinking. Hope is not a strategy. Denial kills you a second time because even if you do physically survive, you
are psychologically shattered by your fear helplessness and horror at your moment of truth.

Gavin de Becker puts it like this in 'Fear Less', his superb post-9/11 book, which should be required reading for anyone trying to come to terms with our current world situation: "...denial can be seductive, but it has an insidious side effect. For all the peace of mind deniers think they get by saying it isn't so, the fall they take when faced with new violence is all the more unsettling."

Denial is a save-now-pay-later scheme, a contract written entirely in small print, for in the long run, the denying person knows the truth on some level.

And so the warrior must strive to confront denial in all aspects of  his life, and prepare himself for the day when evil comes.

If you are warrior who is legally authorized to carry a weapon and you step outside without that weapon, then you become a sheep, pretending that the bad man will not come today. No one can be "on" 24/7, for a lifetime. Everyone needs down time. But if you are authorized to carry a weapon, and you walk outside without it, just take a deep breath, and say this to yourself..."Baa."

This business of being a sheep or a sheep dog is not a yes-no dichotomy. It is not an all-or nothing, either-or choice. It is a matter of degrees,  a continuum. On one end is an abject, head-in-the-sand-sheep and on the other end is the ultimate warrior. Few people exist completely on one end or the other.



Most of us live somewhere in between. Since 9-11 almost everyone in America took a step up that continuum, away from denial. The sheep took a few steps toward accepting and appreciating their warriors, and the warriors started taking their job more seriously. The degree to which you move up that continuum, away from sheephood and denial, is the degree to which you and your loved ones will survive, physically and psychologically, at your moment of truth.





[Note: This essay is an except from Grossman's new book "On Combat".]

Perhaps that will make the analogy clearer.
 
Sigs Guy said:
So people are pissed off about having to do a course and fill out some paperwork?

I did that course and filled out the paperwork and it really wasn't that terrible. As for the government restricting some guns, I don't really care some types of guns don't need or better yet shouldn't be available to the civilian population. I think that when the biggest champion of gun rights is a guy that advocates arming girls in grade 8, it kind of makes me question what kind of society they really want.

That would almost look like you're advocating a military run government. Remember a little thing called civilian police departments? I would change it to read certain weapons are not available to people who can't display the maturity and knowledge to safely use them. Wait, we already have that don't we? But you want harsher measurements, including the banning of handguns. You're a one trick pony who hasn't read or heeded anything that anyone contrary to your small-minded opinion has stated. Therefore, you are a troll Jimmie. ::)
 
hoplophobia - n. - an irrational and morbid fear of guns, a term coined
by Jeff Cooper, from Greek "hoplites," weapon.

Symptoms may include:
discomfort, disorientation, rapid pulse, sweating, faintness and more,
at the mere sight or even thought of guns. Hoplophobes are common and
should never be involved in setting gun policies, though many are hard
at work in the rights-denial movement, and are arguably the greatest
threat in the debate. Point out hoplophobic behavior when you see it, it
is dangerous, and sufferers deserve pity. A hoplophobe (HOP-li-fobe) can
often be cured by training, or by a day at the range.

 
What I wouldn't give for a day at the range......it's been too long!  :crybaby:
 
For everytime Sigs Guy protests firearms, I'm going to go out and buy two.
 
recceguy said:
hoplophobia - n. - an irrational and morbid fear of guns, a term coined
by Jeff Cooper, from Greek "hoplites," weapon.

Well...I wouldnt call it a phobia...more of an irrational believe that the current law enforcement capabilities will keep us all cuddly and protected...

 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top